Dynamic Range

jdg78

[deleted] I have an acoustic upright as well which I never liked because of its limited dynamic range (and its slow upright action). Most of the cheaper grands are not much better, either. The acoustic grands I really like cost 40k € and more, money that I do not have, and if I had I would not spend it on a piano.

Jane My favorite test for that is the second part of the B section of Rachmaninoff's Op. 23 No. 5. Trying to sing out the third voice that weaves between the two hands.
In my extremely limited experience with acoustic pianos, that has been very easy to do on a Steinway B or D. Less so on other acoustics.

I've had similar experiences. Growing up I played on mostly lower/mid-level and/or not particularly well-maintained acoustic pianos, and was often frustrated that I couldn't achieve the same level of refinement or dynamic range I heard on recordings.

I figured it was mainly due to my under-developed technique (which certainly was a large part of it), but when I got to college and had the opportunity to play on a concert-prepared Steinway D for the first time, I was amazed by how much more responsive it was than the pianos I typically played.

In a way, a properly weighted digital keyboard with a good VST can actually feel closer in approximation to a top-level acoustic. But when you encounter a run-of-the mill instrument in the wild, the gap can feel quite large.

Joannchr

jdg78 this i indeed a fundamental difference between acoustic and digitals . Most days I play acoustic day time and digital at home . One has to bear in mind that modern grand have been specifically designed to sound loud in large venues . Pianos are in the quasi majority of cases never mic’d in concert halls as purists want to hear the original acoustic sound means . The person sitting on the last row of the venue needs to be able to hear ´ppp’ notes so the original sound needs to be substantially loud . What matters is the proportions between pppp and ffff in a logarithmic way , and without a shred of a doubt a good grand is way way better than any DP , but the low volume you achieve with a good VST and a DP gives you the (false) impression that dynamics are better . To add to this thread’s comments about NI noire , I must say that I have tried recently to check what it was all about , and I have to say , it is the best VST I have ever played up to now . I’m a big fan of Garritan CFX Grand for the reverb and relatively good pedals behaviour, I like Pianoteq a lot , because of the controls, the pedals and the sympathetic resonance , but NI has done something very special with Noire . While Garritan & VSL have focused on the sampling process and the venue ( abbey road for Garritan) the number of samples , the mic placements etc… it seems that Noire initial project focused on preparing the piano specifically to achieve a specific tone and color and gosh , what a sound ! It left me voice less hen I have tried it at home with the right velocity curve and settings . The bass with the sub is to die for , the trebles are the best I have listened to in all the VST’s have used , by a long shot; it is the first time , playing the sublime 2nd movement of the Ravel concerto in G, that I found the same sensation and voicing in the extreme part of the keyboard than on a good grand . Only drawback are the limitations on the pedalling, but I have to say the sound and the dynamics are just out of this world , and I’m prepared to forget about Una corda as a trade off .

jdg78

Yes, Noire has a very unique and special tone. It’s also quite chameleon-like - you can alter the sound a lot by playing with the color knob and other parameters.

It was my favorite piano VST for quite a while until I got some of the VSL pianos. At that point I decided to sell my license, figuring I wouldn’t need it anymore, however after a few months I realized how much I missed it and ended up buying it back.

I do wish it had a soft/una corda pedal option though, even if only simulated. I would probably play it a lot more if it did.

Speaking of which, if anyone with some more technical knowledge of Kontakt (Dore?) could figure out a way to add a simulated soft pedal effect into the scripting for the Noire, that would be amazing. Don’t know if the NI instruments allow you to fiddle with them though.

Joannchr

jdg78 the thing is that a volume pedal is not a substitute for Una corda because Una corda main feature is to change the tone of the piano sound with the hammer hitting the unworn part and dynamics are so good with noire that your fingers are your best asset a precise control of the volume. With the velocity curve , you achieve excellent. pianissimo but the tone won’t change . For sustenance , half pedal could be used , to keep bass notes and allow change of harmonies so it is less of an issue . So we have to live without una corda here 🙁

jdg78

Joannchr Yes, I realize it wouldn't be the same as a true una corda samples, but in the absence of them I still find it preferable to have a simulated option. VSL and a number of other developers do it this way, and while it's not ideal, I do use still find it worthwhile to have.

Very few libraries have real una corda samples, apart from Garritan and a few others. The Galaxy Vintage D is another excellent option.

VI Labs Ravenscroft, Embertone Walker and the old Vienna Imperial also have real una corda, but I don't care for those libraries for various other reasons.

SouthPark

Joannchr What matters is the proportions between pppp and ffff in a logarithmic way , and without a shred of a doubt a good grand is way way better than any DP

Know what you mean! Although - when factoring all features of some particular modern DP - regardless of sound being heard from head-phones or speakers --- in terms of clarity, expressiveness, emotion producing/creation etc --- I reckon that no category of piano is 'musically' better than another category. I reckon that even when it comes down to dynamic range and nuance etc --- it all depends on what sort of music is being played. And super complex/complicated music as we know, isn't 'holy grail'. There are slow or even relatively 'simple' tunes for piano, that - when played with adequate dressing - that can match it with the most complex piano music - in terms of delivering amazing musical messages to ourselves (and others). And those 'tunes' (music - which can be classical, pop etc) will sound awesome --- amazing - on digital piano. Even on slab digital pianos. But importantly - acoustic pianos (including grand) are awesome as well. They're all amazing.

Joannchr

SouthPark don’t get me wrong , even entry level DP’ s today can offer tremendous experience ( all the P125 , Korg D1 , Roland F10 etc ) and the top hybrids are fantastic . That being said, any person playing piano at any level , with a given DP and a specific VST gets used to it and is able to make the most out of it , sometimes in a very convincing way , but it is when you go back to the real thing and sits on behind 9 » grand that you realise the gap between the quality of the sound being produced in a way which is agnostic of piece difficulty or style of music if you talking acoustic piano sound . Letter fur Elise stills sound better on a true Steinway D than on any DP in the market . But it’s b…y expensive to buy , to run and drive your neighbours nuts ….

SouthPark

Joannchr Know what you mean. I used to sit in a theatre by myself playing a concert grand piano - alone - for ages - maybe like a heap of other people out there too, similar. And the sounds/expressivity etc) of them (grand piano) are indeed very nice. But when I'm playing even my slab digital - as in just tinkering and getting ideas on how to refresh or rejuvenate some existing music, I get equally satisfying sound and music experiences. I just posted this mistake-ridden semi-improv from half an hour ago in the OPP (aka 'other piano place'). Done with my trusty P-515. Here, it's just a casual scouting trip, and I think it should sound nice on a heap of digitals and acoustic instruments - and ever nicer after some more refinements, effort and/or additions and fine touch by anybody is put in.

toccata-bwv565-semi-improv-mod-southpark-north-queensland-australia-p-515.wav

toccata_mod

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