Repeated notes and Intrinsic piano action

Joannchr

I was practising K141 from Scarlatti this morning just for technique , as considered it as one as best exercise for repeated notes .

On the acoustic steinway grand , I can achieve 120 bpm with consistency

On my MP11 (GF II) & VPC1 (RM3 grand 2) I can do 120 bpm but rarely hard to be consistent enough to play it on stage.

On PHA4 Roland action, no way .

I would be very curious to have u view on this particular lovely sonata, deceptively simple when you look at the score and so hard to play at tempo.

It is a 3/8 allegro. at 120 BPM , given the fast repeated notes are 1/16 , it corresponds to 8 notes / sec , which is close to impossible on an upright .

The reference for many pianists for this piece is the incredible rendition by Marthe Argerich ( yes, her again ! ) as en encore , considered by many as the ultimate:

https://youtu.be/Gh9WX7TKfkI

I have metered the first 17 measures with precision, she plays them in 8.67 seconds which corresponds to a stunning 11.76 notes per second which is definitely an alien performance. It is about 176 BPM which is already a presto and not anymore an allegro.

The way she sits at the piano and executes it straight away with the most incredible metronomic precision, while still injecting musicality is truly out of this world.

This makes me think that intrinsic piano action as such is a wrong metric as not an absolute value. What really matters is (piano action+ pianist own technical skills + Pianist own preference in term of action)

For instance as much as I like the GF2 action, It is still not as good as the Steinway Grand I am playing during the week , but I don't seem to be able to play the sonata above 120 bpm without being inconsistent, so I am hitting my own limit not the piano's limit.

With the PHA4 , even though as I consider the action to be pleasant , there is no way I could play it as 120 bpm. I can't even conclude that the action is bad, as it could well be that my own style is not compatible with it , that is the only conclusion I can draw.

This is why I am always very sceptical of comments made by reviewers on youtube.

Would be very interested to have your view on the matter , experience with the K141 on your own DP and if you haven't try it , then by all means give it a try, it is a fun short sonata to play.

9190

Joannchr On my MP11 (GF II)

Joannchr as much as I like the GF2 action

The MP11 and MP11SE use the original Grand Feel action of the first generation.

David B

I compared the key repetition speed of my N1X to a few acoustic grands that I used to have access to. The N1X didn't preform as smooth as the acoustic grands, but I think it has to do more with the sensors than the action.

Joannchr I'll let you figure out how many notes per second this is. 😀

https://youtu.be/Wl6-AUG54xA

God Bless,
David

QuasiUnaFantasia

I have the PHA4 action (FP-30), and the only limitation that has become apparent to me is lack of speed in the key returning to playing position, so I have great difficulty playing certain things correctly (Grieg's "Puck", opening measures, for example). I have no experience with the Scarlatti.

Joannchr

9190 you are right actually I meant GF and RM3 Gd II for the VPC1 not I’m sure if there is any big difference between the mp11 and a CA , maybe you know ?

HZPiano

Joannchr

Joannchr if there is any big difference between the mp11 and a CA

Hello,

If by 'CA' you mean Grand Feel III, yes, in playing feel it is rather different from the original GF in the MP11SE.

Playing an MP11SE and a VPC1 next to eachother (the VPC1 hooked through MIDI to that same MP11SE for sound), I quickly preferred the VPC1. This was consistent on several visits to the same place.

But going to the GFIII, that immediately was my favorite of the bunch. It's out of my budget, otherwise I could see myself playing happily for years with that. Minus the black key texture, that is…

I'm in no position to comment on repetitions, by the way 😬.

Cheers and happy repetitive actions,

CyberGene

A real grand piano has real escapement which allows for the hammer to be detached from the key leverage system before hitting the string and then to rebound on its own and be caught by the backcheck. The hammer energy is thus absorbed by the backcheck spring, so the hammer becomes motionless and ready to be thrown again immediately and with a precise force that you feel and exert, so that you can accelerate it again from a very low velocity to the desired terminal velocity. Hence a good control of the repetition.

On all digital pianos the hammer will be pushed to the stop rail by the key that is also hitting its stop cushion at the same time. For that reason releasing the key quickly for a repetition may coincide with the hammer rebound that will push back the key and thus you have to first overcome that rebound and apply an extra force to accelerate it back. What is more, the multiple repetitions may lead to a self-amplifying oscillation similar to a punch-bag being punched by a boxer. In this case the velocity is almost uncontrollable.

That is why real escapement is important. It’s not just the feel they imitate but a much more intricate mechanical interactions between various elements.

Joannchr

CyberGene I concur

Joannchr

HZPiano Thks HZ I haven’t try the GF3 yet , I’ll visit a Kawai store soon . It’s expensive indeed so I will have to convince my wife that Scarlati deserves it😊

kawafanboi

let's just program the left pedal to auto repeat at 12 notes/second, take that argrich, technology = checkmate. 😗

SouthPark

kawafanboi heheh. Nice one KFB. Do you mean program the midi sequence to do the super fast repetition, faster than what any person could play? That certainly does work. That's fun to do with midi drum sets to hehehe.

As for note repetition, I usually don't play pieces with repeating notes and trills etc. I just play my own style. But I often practise fast repeated note just for the actual fun and satisfaction of practising it. It's in the fascination in doing our best to control our own body/fingers to get sustained and adequately fast cyclic action with a few fingers on a single hand - instead of the two hands (ie. the index fingers drumming action - which - also can achieving remarkable results with practice - except that requires 2 hands).

Joannchr

kawafanboi

kawafanboi when I observe what happen on the VPC1 , the sound is produced when your finger reaches the let off point which you can feel which is more on less in lower 3 rd part of the key dip . When the key bounces , it never reaches that point , so i don’t think there is any filtering needed for this action . I cannot comment on RHC or GFC as I haven’t tried .

Joannchr

David B when I have time I will calculate your speed David . The action looks very good . 👍

Joannchr

David B So I calculated average speed for the 3 pianos when speed was stabilised which short period of times .88 seconds .

The results are KG-1C 6.8 notes/sec , N1X, 6.8 notes/sec, KG-5C 7.9 notes/sec

I think these results are very good given you have chosen to place your fingers quite high and far from the keys for the video. If you look at Martha passage at 2:25 and you slow down the video at x0.25 you can see that she plays just above the escapement , so she swaps the fingers 4/3/2/1 very close to the escapement zone , which is the only way to achieve her phenomenal speed. In all cases your performance is very good and after the initial acceleration quite stable which shows without a doubt that you are an advanced pianist. Well done David. 👏

SouthPark

David B Very nice coordination!

kawafanboi

On digital pianos, this probably has more to do with their debounce / repeat filtering than the actual ability of the key to register faster repetition.

for example, on my es520, the harpsicord is clearly misprogrammed, if you don't press the key down firmly, and it bounces, that is enough to retrigger the note, barely 2-3mm rebound.

this never happens on the piano settings.

so they must have in place a conditional system to block "unlikely" repetitions. then it might be released when some other condition is met, such that it thinks further repetition is deliberate.

HZPiano

Joannchr Scarlati deserves it😊

And if not, than certainly "Mary Had a Little Lamb" or "Old McDonald". They do, don't they?

😉

Cheers and happy convincing,

David B

Joannchr In all cases your performance is very good and after the initial acceleration quite stable which shows without a doubt that you are an advanced pianist. Well done David. 👏

LOL! I would say I'm still in the beginner to intermediate range, but I appreciate the point about playing just above the escapement. I never play fast repetitions so that information is helpful if I ever what to try this experiment again. Thanks.

God bless,
David

kawafanboi

Joannchr

Grand Feel's main problem is detection instability because its components are soft and not dimensionally uniform.

Repetition is the least of worries regarding those products. 😗

https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=6886

Joannchr The results are KG-1C 6.8 notes/sec , N1X, 6.8 notes/sec, KG-5C 7.9 notes/sec

with 2 hands 1 finger each, i just tested on my phone with an app,

i can achieve max 17 taps/second Peak, 15 max average over 30seconds

1 hand trill, 13.8 taps/second

now this is with no load, so with keys, practically speaking it's going to be much lower. the vast majority of the products out there should satisfy real world use,

as for difficulty in repetition, i really believe it's their filtering algo, because of how low the key can repeat at 2-3mm of rebound.

Joannchr

David B I teach piano every day and believe me I was not kidding when I was complimenting your regularity. This is in fact more difficult to achieve than pure speed for repeated notes. have a great day !

Joannchr

kawafanboi Well actually , there are a lot of piano actions which are not good for repeated notes I am afraid. That's if you are a classical pianist player of course . fast trills , or repeated notes are very often >10 n/s . This is why Erard invented the double escapement in 1823 , because top pianists of the time ( romantic period Liszt , Alkan and others) were limited by the instruments. 90% of the digital piano under the 1500$ mark are not good enough for classical piano but are absolutely fine for pop/rock type of music.

kawafanboi

Joannchr fast trills , or repeated notes are very often >10 n/s .

trills use 2 keys, the fastest i can do with no load on a flat surface is 13.8 taps / second, 2 finger trills.

even a poorly regulated piano can do at least 5/second per key.

i don't recall off the top of my head any repertoire requiring repeated notes > 10/second on 1 key, i'll take your word for it that they exist, but it must be rare.😗