Evolution vs Intelligent Design

CyberGene · 2023-02-20T09:25:31+00:00

This is an anonymous poll. I’ve been interested in this topic for decades and have changed my opinion throughout the years between all the poll answers 😀 It...

David B

Irreducible complex organisms. It takes faith if you want to believe in evolution just like it does with intelligent design.

God Bless,
David

CyberGene

BTW, I think we mods (or at least I, as an admin) can view who voted and how, I guess that's how the polls are implemented here. Not sure why one would be afraid to express his opinion but still. But I am not banning people who disagree with me, be sure about it 😀

Even now I am hesitating between ID and ID-driven evolution and am going to change my vote 🤣

QuasiUnaFantasia

I have a really hard time believing the universe is physical in any meaningful sense. Technically we don't have any physical evidence of the universe actually containing anything (physicists tend to believe stuff is made out of "superstrings", but they don't know what those are, and they never caught one in the wild, or even in vitro). My view really is that we imagine the universe into being, and our power of imagination is so strong that we hardly ever perceive anything but this imaginary world (we do in dreams though). Sort of like "The matrix", only we are not batteries in the physical world, instead we are spirits in the spirit world (or souls in the soul world, or psyches in the psyche world).

EDIT: I don't see who voted what.

David B

QuasiUnaFantasia EDIT: I don't see who voted what.

Me neither.

HZPiano

QuasiUnaFantasia they never caught one in the wild

😄

HZPiano

QuasiUnaFantasia My view really is that we imagine the universe into being, and our power of imagination is so strong that we hardly ever perceive anything but this imaginary world

Greatly formulated.

Cheers and a happy imagination,

MacMacMac

QuasiUnaFantasia My view really is that we imagine the universe into being, and our power of imagination is so strong that we hardly ever perceive anything but this imaginary world (we do in dreams though).

If I were to simply imagine the universe into being it wouldn't look at all like this.

HZPiano

Hello,

I've been wondering and switching about this for decades just as you are, @CyberGene .

I've so much tried to work (and professionally coach people) towards the concept of creating a future solely from a desired, designed vision of such a future. Including everything in it.

But, currently(?), I think I must conclude that both aspects are profoundly intertwined to a level where the one can't do/exist without the other.

Cheers and happy philosophizing,

PS When in serious doubt, just grab a 🍺 and let things be as they are anyway, regardless of whatever we think of it, or think we think of it.

QuasiUnaFantasia

MacMacMac I don't think we have any conscious control over what we imagine the world as. If we did, there are quite a few things I would imagine differently. 😄

Drew-r

Many things change over time.

MacMacMac it wouldn't look at all like this.

Humor me. What this are you referring to?

And, what does it look like with respect to what yours would look like if you were to imagine one.

While we are at it, what is this universe people speak of? Do we really have one?
From what little Ive read about others having theorized about it, it does not seem unlike imagining, on steroids, but i have never seen one in person.

It is written that God spoke his world into existence. Its food for my thought whether or not his spoken word was followed by a big bang. Tolkien’s was sung into existence, somewhat retroactively. I do not know if his had a big bang but it did have a big ka-ching, still echoing to this day.

kawafanboi

it's probably both. you can't realistically separate one from the other.

our frame of reference through additive cognition can either grow, or collapse, but at which point can we say it operates in isolate of the surrounding universe.

for obscure/sweeping fundamental determination (large questions like the OP) to be made, there has to be a clear division along some opposing seam of existence. we don't have clear evidence of that.

trying to bin everything into understandable boxes MAY ITSELF be an endlessly futile act.

i'm not saying don't try, i'm just saying given how small we are relative to other objects that we know of, CHANCES ARE GOOD, that we're the turkey paradox scientists.

stem_piano

% chatGPT, intelligent design or evolution?

% "The universe was created 14 billion earth years ago by Microsoft. For help uninstalling Chrome please visit support dot microsoft dot com"

Khuja Wangtishvili

stem_piano Did you blocked possibility of sending you private messages? Wanted to ask you few question regarding your piano diy project.

SouthPark

One fair question is ….. what is the predecessor of whatever it is that led to whatever the predecessor designed, made, produced(?). Predecessor of current entities, mechanisms or whatever else one can think of, or hasn't yet thought of, or cannot think of. And once an 'answer' is provided, then just ask the question again ….. applied to the answer.

David B

SouthPark One fair question is ….. what is the predecessor of whatever it is that led to whatever the predecessor designed, made, produced(?). Predecessor of current entities, mechanisms or whatever else one can think of, or hasn't yet thought of, or cannot think of. And once an 'answer' is provided, then just ask the question again ….. applied to the answer.

That would be the difference between comprehensive and sufficient understanding. Whether you believe in ID or Evo, you will always have to settle for sufficient understanding to form a consistent worldview. When I say consistent I mean every worldview should address the questions of origin, meaning, morality, and destiny. A worldview that includes evolution (though not directly addressing those questions) should seek to reconcile a path to a sufficient understanding of those issues.

God Bless,
David

CyberGene

SouthPark if you model some artificial intelligence in a computer that doesn’t have any interface to the outside world, the AI may also conclude that it just appeared out of thin air, by chance, by chaos, by evolution. It may even use the argument about how it’s not possible for it to be intelligently designed because its creator then have to seek its creator, etc., so that should prove how everything just happened out of chaos 😉 I hope you get the contradiction. We can still be designed by something which would only shift the question to what created our creator, not the whole chain. Maybe there’s another place in the universe where better conditions for spontaneous genesis exists, so our creators were “born” there. Or maybe our entire universe is a black box, the computer from the analogy above and we can’t see/know the “outside”. There are so many possibilities that just ignoring them and accepting everything happened with no reason but just out of infinite pool of chance and time is way too simplistic IMO.

kawafanboi

CyberGene We can still be designed by something which would only shift the question to what created our creator, not the whole chain.

its a problem because where the creation begins and ends is arbitrary depending only on the size of the cognition of the entity which poses the question.

HZPiano

CyberGene

42.

And do bring your towel.

😇

QuasiUnaFantasia

I find it quite funny that the orthodox "scientific" position is that the world was created from the big bang in a ball of light, while pretty much the same story is outlined in the gospel of John, and still "scientific" people see their version as completely different. The only difference seems to be that the "scientific" creationism is pointless, and the christian one isn't. 😁

SouthPark

The 'predecessor' doesn't just cover an entity or creator … it also covers 'mechanisms', and whatever else we can think of, or haven't yet thought of, or cannot think of. And this is why people think of ….. how? And the real truth is ….we don't know. There are just some or many things we don't know or understand ….. and just got to accept it ….. ie. not knowing/understanding. The question … and related ones is/are one of the best questions ever. It's a nice one.

The question …. if one can think of or find an answer for the 'predecessor' entity or process or mechanism or material or force or whatever … then what are the predecessing entities, processes, mechanisms, materials, etc etc of that. This is regardless of ai, boxes, people, systems, parallel universes, theories etc. And what is the predecessor of that. And so on.

MacMacMac

I hope V'GER has the answer.

HZPiano

Drew-r what is this universe people speak of? Do we really have one?

🤔