Sightreading

RIP · 2021-10-12T13:10:36+00:00

In the spirit of making this forum the best (since the best people, aka you, decided to move here), I am forcing myself to post at least one non-meta non-OT (that is pianistic) post each day. Some days I may repost thing that you might have already heard from me somewhere else but not today. I suggest each one of you do the same, otherwise I predict that the forum will fizzle 🔥 after we get tired of the "otherwise you will be banned" jokes. Small background (more on that in a future post): I am an adult learner, with a (remote) teacher and I am making progresses on all fronts but reading. I tried a plethora of sight reading systems and exercises and I've found only two "good enough" to mention: https://www.amazon.com/Sight-Read-Rhythm-Instantly-Mark-Phillips/dp/1575605155 which covers only rhythm and really well and https://www.amazon.com/Super-Sight-Reading-Secrets-Step-Step/dp/0961596309/ which covers everything with progressive difficulty, some things better than others (poor on rhythm but there's the other one) Actually I should also mention https://playpianofluently.com/ which I am also doing, but that is a completely different approach and I am not sure I am utilizing it correctly. Phil is Best (pardon the pun). I should get a private lesson with him, but he is really a maverick and I'm sure the first thing he'll say is to not do anything else but his stuff or forget any progress. Has anybody else done (as he asks or on your way) any part of his course? Back to the books. Both of them are extremely poor on exercises (in that, there are only a few and you need very many). Moreover, with an exercise, you never know if you played it correctly. Think learning to read and misread most words in a way that still makes some sense and not realizing it. Are you still learning? So, I started writing an Android app which used the ideas from both (and a few others from myself) to automatically generate exercises and use MIDI to check that you are playing it correctly. It's in a very preliminary stage, but it seems promising (more on it in a future post). For now, the question is: how have all of you learned to read, how are you doing (or not doing) it now, and what else do you care to share about it? As of myself, I am extremely poor: I can read one hand or the other separately (never together), at a very slow tempo, and only if the rhythm is simple. This is really stifling my progress: I spend 90% of my time learning a piece between reading and memorizing (another topic for another day) it. My teacher simply says, try to do it, memorize for now and it'll come to you. He's a great teacher and I fully trust him, so perhaps it will, but I am asking you about your current situation and (especially) your past. I'm particularly interested in people who learned to read music as adults, since the adult brain learns different than the child's.

Skropi

RIP Holy cow!!!!!!!!!!

Two months and you're already at the Chorales step!!? Starting from zero!!!??

Double holy cow!!!! Congratulations!

I'm trying to read since practically forever (decades), and using SSRS since at least early 2018 and I am still at level 3 (in the "reading" VP part, I'm at 6 in the "keyboard orientation" one, since I can play all scales in all keys -- and in parallel, contrary thirds or sixths). How did you get there?

Well, for starters, I definitely can't sight read better than you. The fact that I started using the chorales doesn't mean that I've mastered all the VP's, I just mastered VP 2, and then I started combining other elements. I am confident that the process of learning to sight read cannot be put in a recipe, so I take the elements I need from various methods, and discard others. I truly believe that George Dandelot's method is better, for example, especially when doing the exercises with a metronome.

Do keep in mind, that I also don't learn much repertoire, and I don't practice the two pieces I half know for more than 20 minutes to half an hour daily, as I concentrate only on reading.

Here is a real life example of what I can sight read. Not with ease, mind you, but at least I can mostly sight read it. As you can see, it is an extremely easy piece. Chorales are there to challenge me, because they require much more skill, having all those damned voices.

I just believe that this time, in my musical path through life, that I need to learn the language of music first, and only after that, to learn its literature.

Skropi

vagfilm If have no idea how difficult it is for me to read both clefs and they fight against each other because of my engrained previous musical education.

I was sceptical about that too, but it's a matter of perspective. They don't fight each other, as they are not really two different staves. There is only one staff, which is divided in two , just to make it easier to read.

The f cleff is just where the fun begins, and the g cleff where it ends 😁

Just consider the f cleff the beginning, read the f cleff first when reading music, and the notes just go up linearly.

It did gave me problems at first, but it is really that simple.

Skropi

David B Total immersion will accelerate learning a foreign language out of necessity, but how can you achieve total immersion with reading music? Since most of us have a limited amount of time to spend when learning to read music, we can employ apps, tools, games, etc., to accelerate the learning process. I learned how to type as an adult (23 years ago) by using a Mavis Beacon typing program on my computer.

10 or 15 minutes a day with the the right app can yield results when learning a language (Rosetta Stone), typing (Mavis Beacon) or reading music (Piano Marvel). It's all about making the best use of our limited time.

God Bless,
David

I think I came out a bit hard on the apps. I apologise, as I am not against apps, I used some in the beginning too. It is just that they weren't as effective as a simple, old fashioned, leaf of music notation for me.

Immersion in music is not so complicated as it sounds. Just make it a point to read as much music as possible. This alone is tremendously effective. Think about it this way, English isn't my native language, I haven't used it in years, I am now much worse in it than I was 15 years ago, when I actually studied it at the University, but I can still communicate well enough. That's my aim at sight reading, to sight read well enough, so I don't need to memorize anymore.

Picotin

Skropi Think about it this way, English isn't my native language, I haven't used it in years, I am now much worse in it than I was 15 years ago, when I actually studied it at the University, but I can still communicate well enough

I like your example.

I believe English is a quite a simple language in comparison with others. Simple grammar and a limited dictionary is already good enough to communicate.

Looking at music notation from such perspective, how many simbols we need to learn? (I dare to compare it to grammar) How many chords and scales? (I dare to compare it to words)

Not so many in my view in comparison with English, that many of us are using here anyway although not being native speakers.

Once the basis are acquired, it become easier and easier to progress with enough effort.

RIP Yes, they say that I have to "hike" the cliff. Do you see my frustration with that answer?

I feel your pain Delvento and I don't have a solution to propose to you for overcoming the cliff.

I'm just reflecting on my personal experience with this challenge (and the long way I still have ahead!)

arc

Skropi As you can see, it is an extremely easy piece. Chorales are there to challenge me, because they require much more skill, having all those damned voices.

A challenge of the Chorales or any other polyphonic piece is finding an appropriate fingering. But I am not sure if this is the challenge you really want to tackle. If you really want to use the Chorales, why don't you analyse the harmony and then play just two out of the four voices (e.g., basso + soprano)? It might be better to use piece where you can have your full attention in reading the notes and trying to play small groups of notes or phrases with a fluent movement, than continuously struggling with the fingering in a four voice piece.

arc

Picotin Looking at music notation from such perspective, how many simbols we need to learn? (I dare to compare it to grammar) How many chords and scales? (I dare to compare it to words)

Not so many in my view in comparison with English, that many of us are using here anyway although not being native speakers.

Once the basis are acquired, it become easier and easier to progress with enough effort.

The musical language is quite simple in terms of symbols and rules. The difference is that when we learn a language like English or French we gradually learn its symbols, grammar, vocabulary, while, at the same time we are actually learning how to group words together in higher level constructs such as phrases and sentences. And this higher-level reading capability is what enables us to actually understand a text or to fast read it if needed. But with music we often get stuck at reading individual symbols or small groups of notes, while never learning how to read the larger structures. I still do not understand what is needed to reach that level (and I have discussed this at length with my piano teacher, who is able to read music like a normal text), but I believe it is not feasibly to sight read moderately complex pieces without being able to actually read and understand the music instead of individual notes.

Picotin

arc I believe it is not feasibly to sight read moderately complex pieces without being able to actually read and understand the music instead of individual notes.

I totally agree with your observations. I indeed felt making some progress when I started recognizing chords, scales and music patterns as it goes rather than notes in isolation.

That's why I previously dared the analogy with words in a spoken language.

Having said that, for me it's still a very long way to go in order to sight read as most musicians do apparently effortlessly.

arc

Picotin Having said that, for me it's still a very long way to go in order to sight read as most musicians do apparently effortlessly.

I am really not sure if an amateur can even reach that level. I know a couple of pro musicians and all of them are able to intuitively translate the sound they have in their mind to the instrument (or describe the sound they just heard). If one reaches such level, then it is easy to understand how sight reading becomes effortless. My piano teacher, who worked several years as accompanist and répétiteur (part of the job is reducing orchestral scores in real-time and playing the them on the piano during rehearsals), says that when he reads music is exactly the same as a reading a text, but instead of hearing and understanding the words and sentences in his head, he hears sounds and musical ideas. Given my progression rate, I am pretty confident that aspiring to such level is not reachable in my lifetime…

xooorx

RIP I can read one hand or the other separately (never together), at a very slow tempo, and only if the rhythm is simple. This is really stifling my progress: I spend 90% of my time learning a piece between reading and memorizing (another topic for another day) it.

I was in exactly this place. Given a piece at my playing level I would have to decode what the music was saying, work out how I was going to play it, and then play it. And memorise it too if I didn't want to decode it all over again the next time around. How could other people be doing all of that so fast?

Eventually I worked out that they weren't doing that. That "reading music" and "decoding and then playing it" are two entirely different things. This thread's ongoing analogy with the written word helps here: Plenty of illiterate people can study and decode a sentence and then speak what the sentence says… but they still cannot read it to you.

I then understood that I needed to go all the way back to the beginning. Go back to "Three Blind Mice" and this time learn to read it. Not to decode it and play it and call it done (which would take 5 minutes) but to get to a point where I could play and recognise the notation as being "Three Blind Mice" just as surely and fluently as I could read the written title out loud. And only after that I would be ready for "Baa Baa Black Sheep".

But wait. Stop. That still wasn't right though. Back to the written word analogy: You don't give an adult illiterate "Janet and John Go to the Shop" to work on their reading skills unless there's no other choice. The reading level of the text may be appropriate but everything else about it is wrong. Ideally you give an adult illiterate something that's at the reading difficulty of Janet and John but that's not also trying to teach them what a shop is when they know damn well what a shop is.

Long story short: I worked slowly… SLOWLY (no, slower than that) (nope, slower than that too) (nope…) through book one of Bartok's Mikrokosmos and now I can read music. Not well, not yet, but I can read it.

Picotin

xooorx Long story short: I worked slowly… SLOWLY (no, slower than that) (nope, slower than that too) (nope…) through book one of Bartok's Mikrokosmos and now I can read music. Not well, not yet, but I can read it.

👍

Deleted

Skropi Yep, training a skill in isolation, without said skill having a connection to true needs, is not going to get someone very far.

There is a reason why many music degrees require playing another instrument beside piano.

Skropi My sense of rhythm developed, almost by itself, when I started playing in a band, so I had to pay heed to the drummer and the bassist. The need was there, so the skill got an upgrade 😁

Ear training is very important. Even better is it to hear music in your mind from paper and being able to tell by ear that you're on track. That's why sight-reading isn't an isolated skill, it's a broad skillset combined from many individual skills, which all need to be trained individually.

There is the notion of viewing the grand staff as one big staff and linking the note positions to keyboard positions. But in piano music there are clef changes. Instead I like you to think of treble and bass by ear. You see a bass clef and you start hearing bass instead of treble and vice versa.

RIP

Deleted There is the notion of viewing the grand staff as one big staff and linking the note positions to keyboard positions.

Deleted

RIP Charts like these I meant. They are not very helpful either for learning to read music nor for finding notes on a piano. If you get stuck in thinking in these means, it can become a hindrance - especially for sight-reading.

We don't use as many ledger lines either, there is 8va notation for a reason - which just functions as another clef change.

RIP

Deleted delvento Charts like these I meant. They are not very helpful either for learning to read music nor for finding notes on a piano. If you get stuck in thinking in these means, it can become a hindrance - especially for sight-reading.

We don't use as many ledger lines either, there is 8va notation for a reason - which just functions as another clef change.

Yes, I posted it exactly to let you tell the point with something in front, and that's what I found, I know that at the very least the highest and lowest octave should have been 8va and 8vb.

InstrEd

I started at such a young age I really have a hard time giving any insight for adult learners. Only thing I can say is try to sight read some piece of music everyday. It can be just a sheet of music. If you look at Musicnotes.com you can print out a demo page for free of more modern music to keep you motivated.

My 3 cents worth. 😆

RIP

Only now I realized that I did not thanks InstrEd for the suggestion. I think this is a great one and I am trying to do it. So thanks.

Answering a related question, I provided more background of my experience in this post which people subscribed to this thread might want to read.

RIP

@vagfilm I can read, but am a terrible sight reader. This being said, it is key to always have the score in front of you. You develop the skill by constant exposure to hand-eye association.

I agree that it can help, by no means is sufficient. In fact I used to do that, but I quit after years of no progress whatsoever (I started getting some progress in other ways, which I partially discussed in this thread). For a silly comparison, imagine becoming able to learn to read Chinese by simply and constantly staring at Chinese books.

vagfilm

RIP learn to read Chinese by simply and constantly staring at Chinese books.

No... You are staring at chinese books while reading aloud. That is what you are doing at the piano. Even replaying a memorized piece while attentively following the notes on the score is helpful. You could do that while singing, but that will leave the finger memory aside...

You could argue "I don't know the notes" and that partially applies to a number of instruments (guitar, for example). But in a piano the notes are linear (the white ones) and in the score they are also linear. No excuse 😊... Even the flats and sharps are easy: tap the black keys😊

RIP

vagfilm That is what you are doing at the piano. Even replaying a memorized piece while attentively following the notes on the score is helpful.

Hands together, if I play at 1/10 of the speed, perhaps, but at regular speed there is no way that I can do that.

Hand separate, depending on difficulty 1/2 or 1/3 of the speed.

vagfilm

I would be happy with half of that 😊

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