Kawai Calibration Drift

kawafanboi

Order of Events:

--the kawai grandfeel / gm line of actions has severe action stability problems. evidence going back 5 years, all mechanical causes are known but remain unresolved in any current iterations of these products. up to +/- 30 midi value inconsistencies, that's the difference between mf and ff in pianoteq.

https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=6886

--Kawaboi brings up the issue in a CIVIL, and Scientific Manner.

-kawai tribalists (a hate clique) attack Kawaboi, incessantly and viciously with foul language.

--Tribalists, got temp bans.

There's no game. no planning, no conspiracy. they did it to themselves. 😗

To say kawaboi is at fault for ANY of these consequences is an incredible failure on behalf of these people to self reflect.

And @ Frankly, I'd like to be the object of your affections, but unfortunately I do not have a high IQ, I am the most proverbially BASIC person you'll ever meet, I drink soda, I watch M.A.S.H, I eat potato chips.

If you truly believe there is a disparity in intelligence here, maybe these other guys are just below average.

Using a single drop weight across the keybed produces the following midi tracking readouts.

Notice the es520 and es3 (from 2004) are basically flat, while vpc1 is highly irregular.

ES520

VPC1

ES3 (an old 2004 piano)

Khuja Wangtishvili

Ehhh...

David B

I remember Gene had a similar problem with his Yamaha NU1. A few keys when pressed simultaneously (and same velocity) would yield different midi values. I think that's why he exchanged it for the N1X.

God Bless,
David

CyberGene

David B that’s correct. It wasn’t the infamous loud note issue (which was there of course) but an additional problem with two keys in the middle that consistently produced slightly higher MIDI velocities compared to the rest.

kawafanboi

CyberGene that’s correct. It wasn’t the infamous loud note issue (which was there of course) but an additional problem with two keys in the middle that consistently produced slightly higher MIDI velocities compared to the rest.

indeed Gene, when i brought up the issue, i wasn't saying it's the end of the world, but it needed addressing, and they should put in the sales literature that, hey, these pianos need action regulation (possibly quite regularly) unlike "normal digital pianos". per pictured above es3 / es520, they should also offer a detailed regulation procedures for the users, chances are they're not traditional piano owners and wouldn't expect to spend $500-1000 with a technician, because regulation TAKES HOURS. a very handy member on the modartt forum who builds custom speakers took several days to regulate his unit to some semblance of linearity, yet without perfect success. ravenscroft which did the custom regulated vpc1 advertised 24hours of regulation work on each unit.

and if possible in the future, they can certainly design away the problem joinery with some other material or joints.

but the shouty users along with kawai james refused to even acknowledge the issue, downplaying it,

then when multiple users stepped out to say hey, kawai pianos have some quality control issues, and that they also came across velocity tracking problems, they were attacked as well.

30 midi values, mf -> ff, how could you say that's not a problem

kawai james gone as far as to say I INVENTED calibration drift, as if a million things in this world doesn't drift after being calibrated. 🙃

then came the relentless bullying per internet tradition.

kawafanboi

and a word for our new friend Park of the South. it's truly unfortunate that he's been caught in the cross. but i want him to know that we know, we love and we care. He Will Rise Again. 🔥🦅🔥

SouthPark

kawafanboi

I thought it was good KFB. Very good. It allowed us to see and assess what is going on there at PianoWorld. As for MASH -- this one is coming. Coming real soon from the P-515 hehe

SouthPark

This one is for KFB and for MASH fans hehe. I like MASH a lot too. Excuse the opening loud sound …… I need to tone down on that hehehe. This one is for some nice memories too. I think I will add more left-hand backing etc in the future - but not too much, as I just like to focus mainly on the tune. I'm going to definitely update and make it sound much nicer - with more substances and elegance to it.

MASH1

kawafanboi

love the theme song. though the title's a bit morbid. 😄

David B

kawafanboi love the theme song. though the title's a bit morbid

So are the lyrics.

"The game of life is hard to play
I'm gonna lose it anyway
The losing card I'll someday lay
So this is all I have to say

That suicide is painless
It brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please"

I loved the MASH TV show and the theme song melody.

God Bless,
David

SouthPark

hahaha ….. totally agree with you on that one KFB. I'm really going to be again ….. sleeping with lights on tonight (and for next few nights) hehe

But jokes aside. Geez ….. the U.S. servicemen/women and from other nations too doing the same thing (for support of own kind) …… thinking back on the reality. Amazing courageous work. Hats off (and on) to them. Focusing on support team here - as it is MASH. Love their work.

kawafanboi

David B

i know this might sound political, but anyone considering the escalatory events on the border right now, really must try to go back and watch MASH.

it's a comedy drama, but it really puts into perspective what's happening / going to happen. 😗

SouthPark

oh geez --- that's true. Thanks for adding those lyrics David. The lyrics really hits hard. If I had to do a more cheerful version - maybe starts like -- of early morning things I see, visions of the things to be, fun times wait-ting over me, and do-ing any-thing I please.

Woodkeys

It’s good to be alerted to the Kawai calibration drift issue before committing to buy a ÇA701. Despite this warning however, I still may go ahead and purchase one of these because of its overall emphasis on producing a touch and sound that approximates that of a concert grand. So, I’d be going into this with my eyes open but would really like some specific advice on how in the future I could regulate away the accumulated drift myself, even if it requires lots of time to do it. Kawafanboi, are you able to provide some links or other pointers on the detail of to how to carry out this regulation? It would be much appreciated. I do agree that Kawai should provide a thorough, step by step procedure for owners that would help them carry out the regulation themselves to produce optimal results.

MacMacMac

Woodkeys Despite this warning however, I still may go ahead and purchase one of these because of its overall emphasis on producing a touch and sound that approximates that of a concert grand.

Every digital piano every sold was touted with those magic words.
"touch and sound that approximates that of a concert grand"
So tender. So wonderful. So full of bull.
Don't believe it.

And surely do not let that nonsense convince you to disregard the calibration issue.

I'm just not hearing good things about the Kawai digitals.
I could tolerate the shortcomings in an inexpensive model.
But in the $5000 range I'd expect something MUCH better.

SouthPark

Woodkeys Maybe KJ --- aka Kawai James - could put you onto somebody that can provide details about how to 'calibrate' the system if anything does get out of whack.

kawafanboi

Woodkeys Kawafanboi, are you able to provide some links or other pointers on the detail of to how to carry out this regulation? It would be much appreciated. I do agree that Kawai should provide a thorough, step by step procedure for owners that would help them carry out the regulation themselves to produce optimal results.

IF you care about calibration stability, my ONLY recommendation is Don't buy one of these. the DRIFT NEVER STOPS. it's perpetual. You have to be a very dedicated enthusiast and frankly ENJOY regulating the action. i enjoy regulating my own piano, but if i could wave a magic wand and never have to do it again, i would, i'm crazy but not that crazy.

As for anyone who already owns one, the adjustable key geometry which affects drift is the key height, key dip, and capstan.

There are other geometry problems which you can't adjust, such as the wood twisting differently on different keys, or the position of the pivot hole being slightly forward / backwards, they angle the pivot pin, sometimes by alot to account for this, which means that key is not rocking the same angle as the other.

In the latest action iteration, they've removed the capstan screw, but have a rubber pad sort of thing now this means a slightly reduced maneuverability on your end relative to the older gf. I don't know for certain, but it may still be possible to put shims under that back cap, or adding some tape to the top plastic.

key height, is adjusting the height under the pivot pin

key dip, is adjusting the front punchings

KEEP IN MIND, you will never ever ever get it perfectly even, the way it's designed it's virtually impossible.

Refer to this page for more info on people who have done it, https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=6886

there is also a software method being worked on in that thread which can smooth out the output some, but this is only through midi-capture, it won't help the onboard sound engine if that's what you play, it's again not perfect, the drift will never stop.

finally, lubrication could need touch up every year or two.

i am not entirely anti-drift, but i think they really should warn buyers, because it may not be what they signed up for on a digital.

CyberGene

Woodkeys I still may go ahead and purchase one of these because of its overall emphasis on producing a touch and sound that approximates that of a concert grand.

This is just my opinion but to me all digital piano actions are inferior when compared to a real (grand or upright) acoustic piano action. With that in mind I would either purchase a digital piano that is inexpensive, or purchase a hybrid digital piano (one which has real acoustic piano action and for the moment that's only Yamaha AvantGrand and Kawai Novus series). I've never heard of CA701 before but that's a digital piano with a regular digital piano action for €3500 🤦🏻‍♂️ That's ridiculous. You either stretch for a NU1X, NV5, N1X, NV10, or go for some regular digital piano such as the mid-level digital pianos of the big brands. Don't get fooled by the Kawai marketing blurb about their long wooden key actions. The principle of working of these actions is the same as the cheapest plastic folded digital piano actions. Of course there are differences between digital piano actions, some are lighter, other are weightier, some have long pivot, other have shorter one (to me that entire pivot talk is useless since the entire action has much more problems due to being a digital piano action, so the pivot length is a small advantage when the entire action is already compromised), but compared to a real acoustic piano action they all suck 🙂 I understand that makes me a snob but I have established that opinion based on more that 25 years of owning various digital pianos, a hybrid piano (my Yamaha N1X) and working on my DIY hybrid piano controller known as Cybrid which taught me a lot about how acoustic piano actions work and I have fully regulated the grand piano action for that project.

Woodkeys

Thanks a lot for the link Kawafanboi - I'll certainly work through those posts before coming to any decision.

It does seem that drift adjustment over time is a 'feature' of instruments with this keyboard design… a price that is paid in an attempt to approximate an acoustic grand?

I'm in a bit of a bind in trying to balance providing an accepable concert grand type of digital instrument for my friends to play on (they're used to playing on really top rank acoustic grands) with reliability, but to do that on my quite limited budget.

There's no way I could afford a high enough quality acoustic piano (upright or grand) so exploring the digital route seemed like my only alternative.

kawafanboi

Woodkeys

i come from acoustic 20 years, the es520 is my first digital piano purchase. i think if you relax the perception that a digital experience must match that of an acoustic, the process/ transition is much less confrontational.

digital is its own thing, it is deeply expressive and have better overall control than most acoustic pianos.

acoustic is like p to fff

digital is like ppppp to ffffffffff*20Amp*120v. 🔥🔥🔥🔥

MacMacMac

Woodkeys I'm in a bit of a bind in trying to balance providing an accepable concert grand type of digital instrument for my friends to play on (they're used to playing on really top rank acoustic grands) with reliability, but to do that on my quite limited budget.

I think we all want that. But we mostly know now that it's not possible. The so-called hybrid pianos do the best job ... but be prepared to spend $8000 minimum. Short of that ... it's hopeless. A digital just cannot match an acoustic. So I'd just look for something that's acceptable and reliable.

And that calibration drift issue ... is not a feature. It's a defect.