Yamaha vs Steinway signature sound

CyberGene

I've been following the ongoing International Chopin Piano Competition and some contestants play on either a Steinway (there are actually two different Steinways to choose from) or a Yamaha CFX. To my ears there's apparent difference in the timbre and I do believe there is such a thing as sound signature. I can't say which one is better, they both sound absolutely fantastic. But if I have to describe them:

The Steinway seems to have more coherent sound, one that doesn't have a drastic contrast between fff and ppp but is a very smooth and gradual, this also applies to how the sound evolves in time from attack to sustain. And finally it also applies to the frequency spectrum (for a lack of more suitable words to describe that), very balanced sound with no frequencies sticking out.
The Yamaha CFX offers a very contrasting change between a bright and punchy fortissimo and a velvety/dark pianissimo. Then, the attacks are bright and clean, bell-like (but not in a bad way, quite on the contrary!) with the spectrum being almost two-timbral where you hear high overtones first and then they are withdrawn to reveal an entirely different base sound which is full and rich but dark and this spectrum seems to evolve. Absolute magic!

I think these are unquestionably the two best pianos in the world 🙂 Yeah, yeah, I know no two D-s are the same, and no two CFX-es. But I still believe in that signature thing since I've heard many D-s and many CFX-es and they confirm this sound signature theory.

For a comparison.

The Yamaha CFX
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Hp5F5w9XE0

The Steinway
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiOLn8BiZxY&t=422s

(I've linked to 7:02 in the second video, so that you can compare the same work, the Polonaise-Fantaisie).

What do you think?

I still vote for the Yamaha CFX although I would be hard-pressed if I had to prefer one over the other based only on listening to them on YouTube.

Deleted

I prefer the sound of a good upright piano I can obtain. 😃

vagfilm

My question for the more experienced is: to what extent this signature sound is caused by in adjustable things of the piano structure (soundboard profile, harp, string overlap, the wooden frame), or is caused by adjustable things (action dynamics - renner vs yamaha, hammer voicing, choice of strings)? Main point being: can a technician make a cfx sound more like a D and vice versa?

MacMacMac

I'm guessing that the soundboard and associated wooden parts make it profoundly difficult to transform the sound of one to the other.

Hammers and strings can be chosen to effect some change.

But the wood is so fundamental that a Steinway is a Steinway, and likewise a Yamaha.

David B

Cool observations, Gene.

Two things I noticed. The first is off-topic, but this is PianoClack so….😀

I was surprised at how low the guy playing the CFX sits. His arms are really reaching up to hit the keys. Notice how his knees are pointed up and his elbows are really below the plane of the keys.
I prefer the complexity of the CFX sound and I'm wondering if it's because of my diminished high frequency hearing loss. 6 - 8 kHz starts to drop off for me at the lower decibels (below 50). I wondering if I like the CFX more because I can hear more of the sonic spectrum.

I think I'd prefer the CFX in my living room.

God Bless,
David

CyberGene

David B I was surprised at how low the guy playing the CFX sits. His arms are really reaching up to hit the keys. Notice how his knees are pointed up and his elbows are really below the plane of the keys.

One of the few players who sit that low is my favorite Evgeni Bozhanov but it's no coincidence since they both studied with Georg Schenk. In an interview Evgeni said the professor suggested to him to try this very very low position but it turned out very successful for him and enabled him to produce more varied sound. Maybe the same professor recommends this advice to other people too. They both have their own custom Fazioli chairs that they bring with them 🙂 I'm wondering if Osokins tried to imitate Evgeni because as I said in the other thread, his playing is similar, very personal and different than the mould.

BTW, a few years ago I was struggling with Khachaturian's Toccata and posted some demos on PW. It was ando who asked me if I probably sit too high. I had never paid attention to that. So, I lowered the chair as much as possible and it turned out that indeed, I can play the complex rhythms better. But in my case I had been sitting way too high. I'd say I play at a normal height now, not low.

David B

CyberGene BTW, a few years ago I was struggling with Khachaturian's Toccata and posted some demos on PW. It was ando who asked me if I probably sit too high. I had never paid attention to that. So, I lowered the chair as much as possible and it turned out that indeed, I can play the complex rhythms better. But in my case I had been sitting way too high. I'd say I play at a normal height now, not low.

With this new bench I've got (pneumatic), I've been experimenting with different positions since it's so easy to do on the fly. I've actually been going higher in an attempt to relieve wrist strain. I injured my wrist a few months ago (fell on some stairs). I wonder of my wrist strain is a result of bad technique (not playing into the keys enough) or wrong height at the bench, or something else.

God Bless,
David

Johnstaf

David B

David,

Sitting high makes some things easier, but it can also be harder on your body. If your forearms aren't parallel to the floor, you could be straining your wrist. I like to sit low, but finding a good low position takes some experimenting. It can feel like I'm fighting the piano, but when it's right it feels like something has snapped into place.

vagfilm

David: I truly believe that this is the moment to see a GOOD piano teacher to check your technique and give you some feedback. If you regularly experience pain after playing, don't risk a prolonged injury. You play too many hours and enjoy yourself too much, to put all that in risk.

But this interesting topic on steinway vs yamaha has been hijacked too many times. Back on topic…

magicpiano

No Kawai? No Fazioli? ☹️
Anyway I like how the Steinway has that round and smooth tone in the pianissimo range, but it can be very thunderous when you play fff. It has an incredible dynamic range and its sound timbre is typically warmer than the Yamaha CFX one. On the Steinway you hear more soundboard (low/middle freqs) while on the Yamaha you hear more string sound (middle/high freqs). That's the main difference, IMHO.

MacMacMac

I don't wonder at the absence of Fazioli. I dislike the tone. But I do wonder about the lack of Kawais. The Shigeru I once tried was magnificent. And that was a "mere" $50,000 living room grand, not concert grand.

Johnstaf

MacMacMac In the last Chopin competition the Shigeru Kawai didn't really impress me that much. I thought it sounded a bit pale and uninteresting, but any other time I've heard one it sounded great.

CyberGene

There’s a Fazioli and a Kawai but only a very few contestants chose them in the first round. We will see if anyone will play these pianos in the second round.

oshogg

CyberGene There’s a Fazioli and a Kawai but only a very few contestants chose them in the first round. We will see if anyone will play these pianos in the second round.

There were some players that played Fazioli and Shigeru Kawai pianos in the second round. A contestant from Japan played on Shigeru Kawai. And, a lady from Italy and also FEDERICO GAD CREMA (also from Italy) played on Fazioli. Both of these piano's sound is absolutely to die for too. These 5 (2 Steinway Ds, 1 CFX, 1 Fazioli, 1 Shigeru Kawai) concert grands are probably the best prepped variety of concert grands on the same stage in the world.

At the end of the broadcast, there are "Credits" and it shows there is a whole team of people behind each of the 5 pianos on the Chopin competition stage.

Osho

Ralphiano

I think I would have to have a year or so of having both pianos in my home before I could choose one over the other. They are different, with the Yamaha seeming to show more "achievement" in terms of the complexity of its sound. The Yamaha presents more of the attack elements, and, to my ear, each note retains its individuality during moments of many strings being played at once. I find the Steinway sounds more blended into one. I have no idea which one I would be happiest with as a lifelong partner.

David B

Johnstaf

Thanks. I'll keep experimenting. The new bench I have makes it easy to lift/lower without the added strain of turning knobs.

God Bless,
David

vagfilm

Does the seat tilt forward or backward? It may also help (trial and error to see what fits best)…

David B

vagfilm It has a slight forward cant due the wedge shaped foam.

God Bless,
David

CyberGene

Right at this moment Alexander Gadjiev performs on a Shigeru Kawai
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0gyTsOvZ8E

magicpiano

The acoustic SK-EX is gorgeous sounding… Less dark than the Steinway, but warmer than the Yamaha CFX:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mkyj5i7pbA

Johnstaf

That's what a Shigeru should sound like.

MacMacMac

Johnstaf That's what a Shigeru should sound like.

But what does the word Shigeru sound like? How is it pronounced?