Portable keyboard at Office, VPC1, P515 or FP90?

Harpuia

After July I'm planning to spend a lot more time in an office with open floor plan. Our work could be done remotely and my company is not forcing people going back so I'm not anticipating a lot of people there. Thinking of getting a portable keyboard with good action that I can practice on during the morning, lunch time, or dinner time.

Since I'm mostly going to use it in an open floor plan, my main use case would be headphone play. I should be OK with either using the internal sound engine, or a VST.

I was browsing on Craigslist and FB marketplace and saw a couple of options:
1. Used Yamaha P515 (like new) listed for $950, stand and pedal included
2. 2013 Kawai VPC1 (didn't use much according to the seller) listed for $1,500 (stand, bench and pedal included)
3. Used Roland FP90 (not sure what condition) listed for $1,500

These three models seem to cover the main DP brands. The Roland FP90 is far away, and the price is firm, so I would probably pass that. From reading at forums, it seems like more people like the action of VPC1 compared to P515. I'll try to see if I can talk down the price of VPC1 a little bit. I know I'll have to use VST for VPC1, and it wouldn't be a deal breaker.

My next step would be to arrange visits to try the P515 and VPC1 to see which one I would prefer. The weight of P515 is only half compared to VPC1, and I should be able to carry it myself. I may need help from another person if I want to carry the VPC1 to the office.

Folks on the forum, do you have any advice for me? I'm not too sure on what would be a reasonable price for these. I would also see if I can try a new portable DP at the store and compare.

Harpuia

The other thing that I'm thinking about is warranty and longevity of these DPs. Assuming these have passed the official warranty, when things go wrong, do I just call Yamaha/Kawai/Roland and they would send out a tech for a fee?

David B

Harpuia Assuming these have passed the official warranty, when things go wrong, do I just call Yamaha/Kawai/Roland and they would send out a tech for a fee?

I can't answer that specifically but being a former Kawai customer I can attest that their U.S. customer service is amazing. I would call up and talk to expert technicians. Sometimes they sent me parts and schematics so I could make repairs myself. I like that. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Kawai again knowing that (provided things haven't changed) I'd be well supported with their customer service.

God Bless,
David

David B

I might have to put my N1X in storage for I don't know how long and I was considering a possible slab upgrade to either the P515 or VPC1. So this is an interesting thread. I've never played either so just based on specs I voted for the VPC1. Longer wooden key sticks and minimalist design. Internal DP sounds never seem to inspire me and I don't need all the extra instruments in the P515. However, I think the local Guitar Center has the P515 in stock so I would definitely play it before I made a decision.

God Bless,
David

CyberGene

I voted for P515 because I think having something that you turn on and play is better for quick inspiration compared to VST-s. Besides, your coworkers might ask you to play for them and so having speakers and onboard sounds is an advantage.

Harpuia

CyberGene I agree. On the other hand, how quiet are the actions of P515 and VPC1? Would I disturb others when playing them with headphones?

CyberGene

Some time ago I used to have a Yamaha KX8 MIDI keyboard at the office in a similar situation with open space. It was a software company and all people were listening to music on headphones all the time, so they weren’t bothered. But all digital piano actions are noisy more or less.

HZPiano

Hello,

@Harpuia , I recently played both the VPC1 and the P515 at a specialist piano store.

I prefer the VPC1 BUT I think it is rather impractical for your intended use. The sheer weight alone!

The actions may be weighted differently but both are playable of course. As for the sound of the actions, both sound different of course, but I also reckon one is not significantly louder than the other, I'd call both quiet enough.

So there's my vote for the P515 motivated 😇.

Cheers and happy decision making,

EB5AGV

I really love my VPC1, but for your use the P-515 seems far more suitable for the reasons already commented

Jose

Harpuia

Hi folks. Finally had a chance trying a lot of digital pianos and I will write my impressions below. TLDR is that P-515 is my favorite for the price. I will try my best to describe the feel of action here.

First, I'm an amateur pianist that started at age 5 and I've been playing for almost 20 years, on different acoustic pianos mostly. The main instrument that I've been practicing on lately is a pretty heavy Steinway B, and Yamaha N3X for 3 years before I got the Steinway. Here is a video of me playing Chopin Etude Op.10 No.1 on the Steinway B, and I also used that as one of the test piece when I try different DPs this week.

In general, DP actions don't feel the same as an acoustic piano action (even an upright). The lack of letoff, the difference of inertia and weights will only make the DP action to perform closer to an acoustic action in one aspect, but farther in another aspect. If we use grand piano actions as baseline, all DP actions just compromise the feel in different aspects. I will explain this more in the following section.

Yamaha P-515. Before trying this piano, I've already read a lot of complaints on the heavy weight of the action. Yes, the static weight is heavier than a normal acoustic action, and I will need a completely different touch to control the pp dynamic. This is rather annoying for me to play slow lyrical pieces, but I'm still able to adjust that in minutes. However, since every pianist may have different playing techniques and habits, I would recommend trying yourself. For fast technical runs, P-515 feels effortlessly and much better than the Kawai action because they get the inertia right, as CG mentions. I got a substantial feeling of the key, which helped me to get my desired accuracy and dynamics. The relatively short pivot point is not as bad as Roland FP30 or Yamaha P45, and not a deal breaker for me at all. The sound engine is by far the best, and I feel like Yamaha really knows what they are doing for classical pianists. The internal "velocity curve" is just perfect for me to control the dynamics. And it listed for $1,600. What else do you want for a piano that costs$ 1,600?
Kawai ES-920. Price comparable to P515 but the action is not. It's lighter and more sluggish feeling. And the pivot point for this piano is a problem for me to play black key arpeggios. However, the pp touch feels right on the ES-920. The sound engine is not as good as what Yamaha has. I completely agree with CG that Kawai sound engine seems to be more suitable for pop music, and I sometimes get unexpected dynamic when playing the classical music. I'm not sure if the problem is the action or the sound engine.
Kawai MP11SE. Ironically, this is my least favorite digital pianos among all models that I've tried. It has the GF1 action. I did appreciate the fact that Kawai went with all wooden keys, and in some aspects it is better than the action in P-515. For example, pp touch really feels like a grand piano action at certain degree. However, I really really cannot tolerant the mushy feeling of the key bottom. Repeated keys and trills are all wrong, while P515 gets that right. The GF1 action seems to focus more on making the first half of the key depress to be lighter, but the second half of the key travel really felt wrong. What's more, I feel totally disconnected between the key touch and the sound that comes out, since this action tries really hard to mimic the letoff touch, but the letoff is not the real position that throws the hammer. I feel like Kawai is working very hard to come up with a half-baked action. Sorry if my opinion offended yours. Even if the MP11SE costs the same as P515/ES920, I would still pick P515/ES920 any day.
Kawai NV5(S?). I did find an NV5 (or NV5S) in the store and played about 5 minutes on it. OMG it does have one of the best sound systems among all DPs and it sounds way more natural compared to the NV10 that I tried last year. The soundboard does help on reducing the fakeness of the sound engine. The action feels like a typical Kawai upright piano action. My take on upright actions is that they do feel differently when compared to a grand piano action, but uprights are still safer to play on. I might get a lesser dynamic range but I won't get unexpected dynamics like what I got on a lot of digital pianos! These DP piano actions did try to mimic the feel of a grand piano action, but the overall playing experience of an upright piano (or something like NV5) is still better.

CyberGene

Harpuia thanks for the detailed review and comparison! Indeed, we seem to share the same opinion regarding the dynamic vs static weight sacrifices between the different makes 👍🏻 Personally, after owning the N1X as my main instrument for more than 2 years, I think I am more inclined towards the Yamaha way of digital actions: high static weight (at the price of high pushback against your fingers 😕) but very realistic inertia of the keys. And, as you confirm, a hybrid action (even an upright one) is always better than a digital piano action. I'm really interested in testing a NV5S, I've grown up playing an upright piano and for some reason I'm really partial to upright actions despite their limitations compared to grand pianos. Go figure 😀 Besides, it's probably the best looking digital piano. Of course I wouldn't replace my N1X for any current digital/hybrid piano 😉

And what a terrific playing on the Steinway! 👏🏻

HZPiano

Hello,

Harpuia ,

Thank you for that nice and interesting report!

You do not mention the VPC1, probably that wasn't available to try? Between P515, ES920, MP11SE and VPC1 the latter was my favorite in my recent tests. So it would be very interesting to see how you'd experience and describe it together with the instruments you did try. Not counting hybrids, the only action that I enjoyed more was the GFIII in a CA79. GFIII feels and plays rather different than GFI (under my fingers).

All of this said, as commented before, I can totally see the P515 being the best solution for your current search.

Cheers and the happiest playing,

David B

Harpuia Here is a video of me playing Chopin Etude Op.10 No.1 on the Steinway B, and I also used that as one of the test piece when I try different DPs this week.

That sounded good, both the performance and the piano. Pianoteq has a Steinway B (Martha Argerich Edition) and out of all their pianos I've demoed it's the one I like the best.

God Bless,
David

Austin_D

Pete14 Now, even if the P-515’s static weight is ‘higher’ than that of the N1X, this is but one aspect that, once again, must be taken within the context of the whole (the overall mechanism, how it connects to the sound-engine, etc).

Right. But there is a nuance: we are talking about keyboard actions of the same manufacturer. Let me give you some quotes from another thread in this forum.

Harpuia The sound engine is by far the best, and I feel like Yamaha really knows what they are doing for classical pianists. The internal "velocity curve" is just perfect for me to control the dynamics.

CyberGene Indeed, we seem to share the same opinion regarding the dynamic vs static weight sacrifices between the different makes 👍🏻 Personally, after owning the N1X as my main instrument for more than 2 years, I think I am more inclined towards the Yamaha way of digital actions: high static weight (at the price of high pushback against your fingers 😕) but very realistic inertia of the keys.

"Yamaha really knows what they are doing", "The internal "velocity curve" is just perfect for me to control the dynamics", "but very realistic inertia of the keys".

Thus, if these Yamaha traditions remain in the case of the GrandTouch‑S, while, as some have already confirmed, Yamaha has indeed eliminated this "issue" with the initial static weight (and this is a proven objective point), then there could be a pretty good keyboard action that more people will enjoy. Thus, my message above still stands: I'm still interested in feedback on the relatively new GrandTouch‑S keyboard action as well. Because, as I wrote above, I don't have to wait for anything as long as I have something to practice on.

Harpuia

I know people usually use light or heavy to describe an action, but that's more of a general perception rather than something that is measurable. I did mention on the above post that Yamaha seems to focus on inertia and dynamic weight, while they get the static weight wrong. The P515 also has an excessive up weight that is too much for my liking. The Kawai action tries to get the static key weight right (both down weight and up weight), but the dynamic inertia is not enough. When I play fast runs the MP11SE feels closer to a non-weighted organ, rather than a piano.

Regardlessly, I'm also going to give my "perceptions" here regarding of lightness/heaviness. My take is different from a lot of people. I think a real grand piano action is the "heaviest". Upright actions are generally "lighter", while all DP actions are even "lighter". Note that I'm talking about my perceptions, but not actual measurements. And that difference of perception is huge. When I practiced the Chopin Op.10 No.1 on the Steinway B, I feel really tired for the second half, and I can barely finish the piece without soreness. My Steinway B is one of the heavier actions that I've played in my life. But P-515? I can play through the whole piece effortlessly, or even play the whole etudes twice back to back! So for me, P515 is really a "lighter" action. But I feel the MP11SE is "heavier" than P515, because I can't release my finger from the key fast enough because of the mushy key bottom! I also hit more wrong notes because the first half of the key is too light for me.

eddiepiano

Thank you for your detailed impressions - I can relate to them very well. I would be very interested in your (very qualified) opinions of the PHA-50 Action (Roland FP90X for example) and the VPC1. I think both of them could also meet your expectations.

Pete14

It looks like you’ve already made up your mind, so don’t let anyone tell you otherwise (action too heavy, etc).

This action is NOT heavy! of course, that is, unless, one has been playing on keybed/board made of feathers.

I am not kidding, the P-515 is the best instrument in its class, and I’m coming from an LX-17. Ironically enough, the P-515 was supposed to be a ‘downgrade,’ yet it turned out to be a much cheaper upgrade (if that makes any sense).

This instrument does not cease to amaze me, and for what? a meager $1,500!

Now, when we talk hybrids (NV-5, N1X, etc), yes, that’s another league (category), but it also comes with a hefty price. If I had the money, my choice would be the N1X.

David B

I switched my vote to the P515 since I just ordered one. I would like to try the VPC1, but the higher price and elusive nature make it impractical for me. Hopefully, the P515 will satisfy because it will be my primary instrument for indefinite future (that's if I keep it).

God Bless,
David

Johnstaf

For me it would be the Roland. I think it has the best action in a non-hybrid. I don't like the VPC-1. I'm going to be pilloried for mentioning pivot length, but I have a Kawai MP-10, which has the same key geometry as the VPC-1, and it makes some pieces uncomfortable to play when it's necessary to dig in near the fallboard. 99% of the time it's fine, but then there's the other 1%…

bawb

Was the Yamaha P-515 a Toyota Camry in a previous incarnation? Seems to be "old reliable", not particularly racy, but steady, with an air of classic 4-door simplicity. A conservative sedan, not a Jeep, not an SUV, not a pickup, not Yaris, not a Mercedes Benz. Function over fashion?

I'm thinking about getting one too. Always clawing after instructive analogies.

I was also studying the Studio Logic Numa X GT. I dunno, sure is sexy, in a sorta Lamborghini way, but how many North American mechanics will snicker when I pull into their garage with the Engine Light On? I dread the thought!

And what vehicle was the Roland FP90X in its earlier life? Lincoln Navigator?

HZPiano

bawb Always clawing after instructive analogies.

I like that 😃.

Cheers and happy analogies,