Some Key Notions on Digital Piano Actions

HZPiano

Hello,

Over the last month and a half, I spent quite a bit of time and money (for travel) on six multiple-hour store visits (three different stores) to really get a hands-on sense of the whole spectrum of digital piano actions.

I've been meaning to report on those visits on our 'Clack more than I actually have. I just answered somebody on PW who wishes to make a quite similar upgrade, with the same goals in mind, as I do. So let me paste that answer here as well, because it nicely wraps up my experiences and conclusions of these past weeks. Questions about my experiences? Feel free (of course) to ask.

HZPiano wrote:
Hello,

@Yuhao, I have played a Roland FP-10 with VST pianos for about 20 months now and am also looking for an upgrade, with similar goals and wishes as you have.

Over the last six weeks or so, I made six visits to three different piano stores, multiple hours per visit, to really get to understand all those actions out there. At first, I also thought the differences from my FP-10 were only marginal (and indeed, it is rather nice at its price point and I really enjoyed it so far). But after gathering this much trial experience, differences really start to stand out.

Major things I got out of all this exploring:

- No (really, none!! apart from the hybrids) digital action feels like a piano. They do so in marketing only.

- The point is though, that a select few actions have you play like you would on proper acoustic piano actions. Meaning that technique, movements, and energy you put in can be quite similar (recognizable) to playing on a 'real' action. And that results in an easy and comfortable switch between such a digital action and acoustic instruments, making those few digitals useful as learning instruments.

- For me, no more plastic/folded action. (P515 and FP90 have folded actions.)

So out of all my trials it boils down to:

- Kawai Grand Feel III (in CA79 and CA99) (however out of my budget);

- Casio/Bechstein Grand Hybrid (which isn't a hybrid in the sense that the Avant Grands and Novuses are; in GP310 and GP510) (however out of my budget);

- Kawai RM3 Grand II (in VPC1).

My clear preference is with the Grand Feel III, but alas. This and the Casio are really close to eachother, my preference leans slightly towards the Kawai.

The VPC1 does a great job at its price level. In particular given that you have a hybrid as your North Star, I'd think this is a great step up to train yourself better and further towards proper piano playing. If your focus is on upright actions (U3) rather than grand pianos, the VPC1 might even be a more fitting choice than Grand Feel III or Casio/Bechstein. The pedal unit of the VPC1 is a much discussed and unresolved flaw, and indeed it isn't great. However quite a few people pedal happily away on it.

Make sure to do multiple store visits on different days in different weeks, and your experience and appreciation of the differences in the actions will grow and crystallize into your best pick.

Cheers and happy further trying,

HZ

(As an answer to: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3223997/worth-upgrading-to-p515-from-roland-fp-10.html)

Cheers and a happy Sunday,

Ralphiano

HZPiano For me, no more plastic/folded action. (P515 and FP90 have folded actions.)

Did you really mean to include the P515 within the group of "plastic/folded action" or "folded actions?"

Drew-r

HZPiano

On the topic of DP actions, i have read enough here and there the past 1-6 years that for myself personally, i have at least succeeded in narrowing down the action-related elements from that vast field of touch/feel/sound/static weight / moving weight / pushback-weight */feel-sound-connectivity action-related elements that many enthusiasts have, do and will continue to discuss or debate.

* while this may not be officially part of action lingo, it seems important to me nonetheless due to the frequency that @CyberGene has described and talked about how all DPs except hybrids ( i think) present force/weight pushing back on pianists fingers AFTER the downstroke/keypress, if they are playing a piano with hammers not capable of actually escaping contact with the moving action piece/pieces that start a hammer in motion be these pieces on an AP-GP/DP/Hybrid.

Recently, a thread on Action produced this link/table . I include it here for several reasons to include the surprising (to me) number of (mostly DP but sone AP) models with heavy Downweight “static/friction” force required to start a key at rest moving down. This table charts many DPs, with an easy way to compare the difference between down weight and up/pushback weight across many models. It sticks in my mind @CyberGene has also recently remarked that his new Yami feels wrong powered off, mysteriously right powered on with the belief that the difference between its down & up weights are what allows him to connect well with its combined feel & sound.

HZPiano

Ralphiano

Folded, as it is mentioned between the brackets.

Cheers and happy actions,

Ralphiano

HZPiano Folded, as it is mentioned between the brackets.

Cheers and happy actions,

HZ

Thanks for the info, HZ. Until this moment, I had always assumed that since the keys were made of wood, that they were also made like an acoustic piano key, that is, resting on a balance rail (like the VPC1). But, I looked up photos of the action, and you are correct. It is a folded action.

HZPiano

Drew-r

Well, yes, there's that (pushback). I'd love for my piano action to not have that as much, but alas, currently no such digital action exists apart from the hybrids. Not only the escapement (lack thereof) plays a part; the not-lifting of any damper is another thing.

As for that table, it regularly pops up here and there, as it did again quite recently on PW. As often it is criticised and I am among the ones that take it with huge grains of salt. For instance, the same action in two different Rolands have very different data in that table, and both are way off from the reality as I measured it on mine. So the table, to me, is of little use.

I think I learned a lot, a lot more from this past month and a half in which I played the simplest and the finest acoustic uprights and grands, the simplest and the finest digitals and hybrids, and a whole lot of instruments inbetween, than from a year and a half of reading model discussions, viewing YouTube reviews etc.

I can definitely recommend field trips to anyone seriously into discovering her/his real and true preferences!

🙂

Cheers and happy travels,

Drew-r

HZPiano the not-lifting of any damper is another thing.

Duh, i forgot about the damper factor🥴

I don’t want to detract your thread by rehashing an old discussion that may already be resolved in the minds of others, but ….

Correct me if mistaken, but i thought it was generally agreed that across the wide range of GPs, downweight with pedal down / dampers lifted, on average, is expected to be in the neighborhood of 45 to 65g…. you know? … putting coins or other weights on a key, like middle C, enough to break friction and move the key downwards….. or is this with dampers not lifted?

CyberGene

I believe that infamous table is mistakenly represented as a table of downweight but it’s actually a table of the weight required for the key to move and produce sound which is apparently higher than downweight.

HZPiano

CyberGene actually a table of the weight required for the key to move and produce sound

Aha! That might explain a thing or two!!

😃

Cheers and happy sound producing,

Drew-r

CyberGene

This explains a big part of my confusion with the numbers in the table especially GP numbers like Kawai SK7 Grand mid90/hi 86g, and Steinway D274 Grand mid 96/hi 71g.

Another big part now is, if the actual static downweight for GPs is somewhere between 45-65g, but the actual weight down needed to produce sound is nearly twice as much ……?

PS. In other words, GPs roughly average around 100g of force “weight” in mid registers to produce sound, but only require approximately half of this to start a key moving down, and the hammer, after returning from escapement, exerts roughly half (of the static weight) by way of pushback force.

HZPiano

Drew-r Indeed, pedal down/dampers lifted!

Cheers and happy measurements,