Native Instruments Pedaling doesn't work

David B

An administrator on the Native Instruments forum was telling me that the repedaling feature on my Noire is working fine. So I made this short video to demonstrate clearly that it doesn't work. I was hoping that Native Instruments would provide a solution, but I'm not sure NI cares to change anything. I think they should change their advertising before they sell anymore.

https://youtu.be/-dSSBv8nLBg

God Bless,
David

dore_m

I think I can be even more specific about the pedal behavior of Noire. And I've also attempted (with help) half-pedal coding in Kontakt.

First off, yes the pedaling in Kontakt indeed sucks. I think I've coded something that works reasonably well, but it does introduce occasional hiccups due to the quirks with the engine - which is the main reason I provide the ability to turn it off. Watch my Yamaha S6 video toward the end for my explanation - let me know if my understanding about half pedaling is not correct.

With regard to Noire, I can summarize what does work, but that doesn't mean it works like a real piano:

Case 1: Press down pedal, play note, release note, half-pedal - works! Well, works once…

Case 2: Play note, press down pedal, put pedal in half-pedal position, release note - works! Note dies off depending on half pedal position. (but also doesn't work again)

Case 3: Play note, press down pedal, release note, try to half-pedal to damp strings - doesn't work. But there IS a slight "damper hitting string" sound - Yet the string is not damped (decay time is not reduced, or volume changed)

I know all of these cases because I had to code them. I think it covers the scenarios. BTW, I tested in Reaper, where I can strictly control the pedal and finger conditions. So I would say that Native Instruments would tell you that it works as they intended - but it's not like a real piano. It's "kind of like" a real piano.

maybe, if I get a chance, I'll try to apply my script to Noire to see if I can get it to work according the behavior that I wanted.

dore_m

I just ran some other tests, read some definitions (in the noire and garritan CFX user guides) and see there's a 4th case, which is technically, by their definitions "re-pedaling".

Case 4: Play note, release note, immediately press pedal. The release resonance sustains. Works….

So by their definition of "Re-pedal", it does work. But the Half pedaling doesn't work like a real piano.

David B

Every VST I've played (VSL, Garritan, VI Labs, PianoTeq, etc.,) the pedaling works like an acoustic piano. Kontakt/Native Instruments is the only one that doesn't. It's really a shame because the tone of Noire is so pleasant to me. However, the dysfunctional pedaling makes the library unusable. It defeats the entire purpose of a virtual library. I would never release a product like that. It's seems like such a waste of time to sample that beautiful piano only to produce something that doesn't work.

God bless,
David

dore_m

I would say that its all what the free market can bear. There are no free pianos with half pedaling, except mine AFAIK. Its not a priority to most people. People on this forum are, in reality, a select few who care about these details.

navindra

Why is this important? Repedaling seems more like a bug or design artifact of the acoustic piano than anything else. It doesn't even work on my upright piano... I guess I could make a warranty claim?

I'm sure someone will use this for some subtle and pleasing effect... just like people will pluck a piano string or slam the fallboard for musical effect, but it seems quite secondary at best.

CyberGene

navindra It doesn't even work on my upright piano...

Check again 😉

Re-pedaling is much more important than you think it is. It’s not a gimmick. I just awoke and opened my eyes and still in bed but later on I may elaborate on it (or find what I posted on PW years ago).

vagfilm

navindra Why is this important? Repedaling seems more like a bug or design artifact of the acoustic piano than anything else.

Even though my experience with acoustics is very limited, partial pedalling is very instrument-related. Highly reverberant instruments need partial pedalling to control overwhelming cacophony. Uprights with shorter strings are easily totally dampened. But even I was able to repedal in a bad upright. The secret is to not let the pedal return to full up position: full down, halfway up, 3/4 down, halfway up, 3/4 down... Really fast movements because if the pedal stops, the dampers stops, and the string stops.

MacMacMac

navindra Why is this important? Repedaling seems more like a bug or design artifact of the acoustic piano than anything else.

I'm with you on that. I don't ever try to do repedaling. I don't feel the need.

David B

navindra Why is this important? Repedaling seems more like a bug or design artifact of the acoustic piano than anything else.

Repedaling along with half-pedaling enables the pianist to control the amount of frequencies that are heard. Repedaling is a simple way to reduce the build-up of frequencies without completely cutting them off. Think of a painter having more colors on the palette to choose from. Removing repedaling would be like limiting the amount of colors available to paint with.

God Bless,
David

dore_m

I'm going to use the definitions as I've described previously. For me repedaling is not important, but half pedaling is very important. I have always used half pedaling on my grand and the pianos I grew up with to use sustain, yet not sound too muddy. Honestly, I just got my continuous pedal less than a year ago, and I won't go back. The on off switch pedals just will sound too muddy when I play now. It's taken me a long time to understand it in detail and appreciate it. There was always something missing for me with my old pedal.

CyberGene

Half-pedaling and re-pedaling are indeed interlinked, since one can re-pedal from partial positions, as @vagfilm explains.

I think the most often used scenario which even the least advanced beginners would unconsciously adopt on an acoustic piano with various classical and modern repertoire is this: you play a bass (and optionally some other notes/chord on top of it at the same time) and then move your hands to some other part of the keyboard to add other notes to it. You have to use the pedal and apply it while still holding the first notes, so that you can move your hands to the other notes. So far, so good. You have to apply the pedal before you lift your fingers. If you play relatively fast stuff you will naturally apply the pedal very close to the release point. And now, here's the important thing: in nature nothing happens at an instant and abruptly. Processes are inertial and have smooth transitions even if those transitions are very quick. So, one will intuitively (but unconsciously) discover that he can apply the pedal exactly at the same moment he is releasing the keys and everything works as expected. However, on a badly written script/algorithm (as is the case with many sample pianos, especially the Kontakt ones), even if you're late with just a nanosecond, you've lost your initial notes, they are immediately cut. On a real piano one nanosecond, or even microsecond, or even a millisecond of delay, i.e. applying the pedal after you've released the notes, won't have any audible effect since the dampers are not so quick at dampening the string. But on a badly executed software piano you lose those notes and the piano is very unforgiving and you need to learn to apply the pedal carefully and always before you release the notes and give yourself considerable window, since you risk losing the notes if you're slow with even a picosecond, you're doomed 😉 This creates the unnecessary burden of having to pedal with a very precise timing. But that doesn't make you a better pianist because you learn to do that to overcome software deficiencies that do not exist even in the world's best-prepped acoustic pianos. That is why people who learned on an acoustic (cheap upright or a good grand) are most often irritated by the lack of proper re-pedaling.

And that's just the very basic scenario which one may think is a matter of learning when to apply the pedal.

But then come the situations with a lot of classical and romantic repertoire where you creatively stay within the half-pedaling window and with careful up-down-up-down movements within that window control the decay of the notes, so that the harmony is not messed up. It's still re-pedaling but also combined with half-pedaling. And I can assure you I've never consciously learned to do that, it comes naturally when you play acoustic pianos or digital pianos (they all support that, at least those from the last 15-20 years that come with half-pedal support). And then you hear some terrific sampled piano which is recorded in the greatest hall with the best recording equipment and has impressive demos, only to realize you can't control its pedaling the way you're used to. Because it was implemented by someone who is an engineer and not a pianist 😉

HZPiano

CyberGene unconsciously adopt

A super explanation, CG!

And yes, I started to notice the unconscious use of my continuous pedal as well 🙂.

Cheers and happy pedal control,

CyberGene

Some drivers may use only the first three gears of a 6-speed manual gearbox. Doesn't mean manufacturers should remove the rest 😀

CyberGene

Here's a quick video I just recorded with a real piano piece, a Scriabin Poeme which I often play:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAVOYtnK3XI

Listen at 0:46 where I start cumulating notes with the pedal fully pressed. Then at 0:52 I quickly release and press the pedal again, so that I clean up the sound slightly but still keep it (the bass note remains since it has highest energy) and start playing another passage with smooth transition. If it was a sample-based library with bad pedaling, the sound would abruptly cut there. There's a similar passage later between 2:12 and 2:17.

I have some mistakes, I directly recorded the piece off the N1X to the iPhone (using the USB digital audio connection) without warming up first and so it's not my best playing of that work... But it's just for the demo of the pedaling, don't judge my playing 😀 BTW, I use variable half-pedaling almost all the time.

navindra

CyberGene Interesting, thanks for the very specific example. It's funny though, my first impression of Scriabin is that the actual notes don't really matter much as they sound fairly random anyway. 😃

More seriously though, does Scriabin notate it this way or is it up to performer's interpretation that they should repedal?

jdg78

Interesting. I can’t say I’ve ever really noticed this behavior in the NI instruments in comparison to other VSTs. But most of the repertoire I play is from the baroque and classical era, and I keep the pedaling on the lighter side in order not to muddy the textures too much, so it’s not really a dealbreaker for me.

I actually grew up playing an acoustic instrument - a fully restored 1950’s era baby grand with real ivory keys, but it’s been so long since I played on one that it’s hard to remember what it was like.

My parents were actually planning to give the piano to me once I got my own place, but I ended up moving to NYC and purchasing an apartment that didn’t have the space for it, so they gave it away to someone else. 😭

CyberGene

navindra More seriously though, does Scriabin notate it this way or is it up to performer's interpretation that they should repedal?

He doesn’t provide pedaling notation. It’s me deciding it to taste.