Are Kawai actions mushy (and misc Kawai talk)

HZPiano

CyberGene I hate mushy feeling keyboards such as the Kawai ones

Today I played a plethora of Kawai actions.

They're definitely not all mushy! Some are, but others are a joy to play.

Cheers and happy bottoming (now that sounds weird 🤭),

CyberGene

HZPiano Today I played a plethora of Kawai actions.

They're definitely not all mushy! Some are, but others are a joy to play.

The GF actions are mushy. The plastic ones are indeed better.

HZPiano

CyberGene The GF actions are mushy

🙂.

Well, today was the first time I tried Grand Feel 3 in a CA99. I liked it! Grand Feel 1 (probably 2 as well) is indeed mushy.

I also played the N1X for the first time. Nice! Next to it sat an NV10S. I'd prefer that action over the N1X. However, that is solely a matter of personal preference I guess, not of quality as far as I can see.

Cheers and happy b… eh playing,

CyberGene

Haven’t tested the NV10. People seem to prefer it over the N1X for action. But it’s also more expensive. The samples are only stereo whereas on the Yamaha they are multi-channel. There’s also the great binaural on the Yamaha. So each has its own strengths. I have a particular distaste for the Kawai sound engine in the NV10 which I tested in the corresponding CA at the time and it was why I decided against the NV10. It’s good they removed the mushiness in the newest GF-actions. I didn’t know that. Hopefully they have improved the boomy bass which was also a common complaint?

HZPiano

CyberGene

Yesterday I purely focused on action feel, playability, response, and on understanding my own preferences more, in particular to find out where the VPC1 sits between all other generally regarded digital/hybrid actions. So I deliberately didn't pay much attention to sound engines. My general impression (regarding the sound) over all brands and instruments: some are more acceptable than others, some even nice-ish, none would probably really satisfy me.

Cheers and happy playing,

9190

CyberGene It’s good they removed the mushiness in the newest GF-actions. I didn’t know that.

I was surprised to read this. ^

Source

The same goes for Pete14. I definitely remember that he participated in the discussion of those topics where users had already reported and confirmed from their own experience that bottoming had become firmer in GF3.

And a link to Kawai James' post about the then-new Grand Feel III, where, among other things, it states the following:

- Revised hammer cushion structure
This is difficult to see in the reference image above, however the composition of the hammer cushion has been changed. This results in a firmer key stop feeling, and also a slightly faster key return.

P.S. Text formatting (Bold text) does not work. And if I use italics, the text becomes both italicized and bold.

CyberGene

I think at the time the corresponding model to NV10 was CA67 (was there CA68?). It was the closest I got to NV10 since there was no way I could find a NV10 (or N1X) to test them and compare. I had just returned a NU1X (loud note issue and inconsistency between keys) and knew pretty well the Yamaha sound engine, especially the binaural CFX sound used for headphones. The CA67 was a complete disappointment, I think I described my experience on PW back then. Not sure I remember everything but:

Mushy keyboard. The key just doesn't bottom out in a clearly felt point, so I felt like the notes would trigger while I'm still pushing the key down
Overly sensitive velocity response and exaggerated dynamics, it was unrealistically easy to play very loud notes. That has been a long-time complaint from me about various Kawai digital pianos, I was infamous on PW for that 🙂 You can switch to "heavy" touch response but then the result is your produced MIDI velocities are limited in a narrower range, hence the dynamic range is more realistic but you lose the actual timbre range (you lose those bright fortissimo sample layers) and the sound becomes dull and flat. I had been proposing to Kawai for years to implement something like the dynamics knob on some sampled pianos: you keep the entire sample-layers range but only decrease the volume difference. Or in other words, you will still replay the loudest fff sample layer but will decrease its volume proportionally.
Harsh and piercing high notes that seemed to produce louder sound compared to the rest of the keyboard.
Boomy bass from the speakers. On real pianos you have a very powerful bass but it's not boomy. Here it's like an audio system configured for playing hip-hop music.
The quality of the bass notes is somehow hollow, bass-guitar like, probably due to noise reduction in the samples that removes high overtones or something.

It was a very frustrating experience that finally made me realize I am not a fan of Kawai pianos anymore. Haven't followed their progress closely after that, so they may have fixed those.

Regarding action, I think Kawai in general use better actions than Yamaha when comparing the same price range. For instance, the cheapest GL10 grand piano has slightly better action the the cheapest Yamaha baby grand piano. I think it's the same for NV10 vs N1X. OTOH, they both use grand piano actions and while there are certainly some difference (also a matter of taste), that difference is much smaller than the difference between N1X and any other digital piano with digital piano action. Even the worst short-pivoted and entry-level real grand piano action is light years ahead of any digital piano action IMO 🙂

As to sound engines. Many people use virtual pianos anyway, even with hybrids, so one may choose a hybrid only based on the action and that's a valid point. I think Garritan CFX sounds better than the Yamaha own CFX sound in the N1X. But there's still something in the playability that is absolutely spot-on with the internal engine that is missing with virtual pianos. If I will be exporting audio recordings, I will 100% use virtual pianos. But for perfecting my touch and ultimate control over the dynamics and technique, the internal engine is much better than virtual pianos, while only slightly worse in piano sound. So, I use both, depending on my needs and thus the internal piano sound is also very important for me. Even more important, because for such an expensive piano it's fixed and cannot be upgraded/changed. You get it and you have it for the entire life of the piano 🙂 And virtual pianos come (and go).

HZPiano

CyberGene corresponding model to NV10 was CA67

Those two are completely different instruments: the NV10 a hybrid which is a colleague to the Yamaha N1; the CA67 a furniture-type digital with the Grand Feel II action.

These differences make them incomparable in my mind.

Cheers and happy playing one's preference,

HZPiano

CyberGene one may choose a hybrid only based on the action

Yes, that would be me, as so far I haven't played any digital or hybrid where its internal sound really did it for me.

Cheers and happy playing,

HZPiano

CyberGene there's still something in the playability that is absolutely spot-on with the internal engine that is missing with virtual pianos.

Yes, and that is rather unfortunate!

Cheers and happy integrations,

CyberGene

HZPiano Those two are completely different instruments: the NV10 a hybrid which is a colleague to the Yamaha N1; the CA67 a furniture-type digital with the Grand Feel II action.

Hmm, are you sure about that? I thought they were one and same instrument with different price 😛

Joke aside, the sound engine is absolutely identical.

HZPiano

CyberGene their sound engine is absolutely identical.

Still, as I experienced yesterday, the integration with either the millennium action or the Grand Feel (III, in this case) make for widely differing experiences.

And that is not even considering hugely differing sound delivery systems.

Cheers and happy personal preferences,

CyberGene

HZPiano CyberGene one may choose a hybrid only based on the action

Yes, that would be me, as so far I haven't played any digital or hybrid where it's internal sound really did it for me.

In that case take in mind there are some slight differences related to the way the two sensor systems work and consequently the MIDI implementation: the Kawai piano doesn't send key-off velocity and cannot send silent key press (I am not 100% sure regarding the latter though). The Yamaha implementation uses sensors both on the hammers and a continuous grey-shutter sensor under the keys which sends continuous data about the key position across its travel and allows for a very advanced behavior on press and key-release. Admittedly, only Pianoteq supports (?) the continuous data from the keys though but maybe in future there will be more software to support that.

HZPiano

CyberGene Kawai piano doesn't send key-off velocity and cannot send silent key press (I am not 100% sure regarding the latter though). The Yamaha implementation uses sensors both on the hammers and a continuous grey-shutter sensor under the keys which sends continuous data about the key position across its travel and allows for a very advanced behavior on press and key-release

Yes, when traveling back home yesterday on bus and train, these thoughts struck me as well (with a bit of a jolt, because I usually am rather a details-matter type of person). My intention yesterday was to forget and ignore all sounds, specs, technology and all of that and just monitor how I felt which each piano (quite a few 😲) I sat at and played. I also put all hundreds of hours of forumming and youtubing in a drawer and locked it tight for the time being. I just wanted to feel and experience.

And that, is super educational 🙂.

Cheers and happy connecting,

CyberGene

HZPiano maybe on your next visit you can take your laptop with your preferred virtual pianos and ask if you can connect them to the hybrids. That would be the ultimate test and I doubt the store would disagree since those are expensive pianos after all and one should take his time and test them thoroughly.

Unfortunately I didn't have that chance a few years ago, since I haven't heard a store here to import hybrids 🙁 I've recently asked the Kawai distributor here about NV10 and he told me nobody has ordered it yet, although it's been available for a few years already. I'm not sure about the Yamaha hybrids, there was only a NU1 for quite a long time in the Yamaha store which was finally sold long after NU1X was announced and the NU1 discontinued.

So, at the time I had no choice but to risk. Ultimately I am very happy with the N1X. To me is't absolutely perfect 😀 I can't imagine how "more perfect" a hybrid could be but I occasionally see people expressing preference for the Millenium action in the NV10 over the N1X, so it seems it may even be a better action. That being said, I think @David B compared them side by side at the time and preferred the N1X action. Anecdotally some people say the NV10 feels slightly heavier in touch than the N1X and if that's the case, I would prefer the lighter action but that's all too vague unless one tests himself.

So, at the time, I had no choice and decided to test the sound engine in the CA67 and despite this being a totally unreliable test, it was still a proper subjective test that made me take a decision. I was so underwhelmed by the CA67 I said to myself "I don't want to buy a piano from a company that markets such a lame (to me) digital piano as a premium digital (non-hybrid) piano". Maybe it can turn out that I am even more impressed by the NV10 some day if I have the chance to test it... Honestly, I prefer not to know 😃 I love the N1X so much, I don't need to put "bugs" in my head 🤣

Pete14

I had a similar experience with the GF action (mushy, light, etc), but I never bothered checking out subsequent iterations (2,3).

I did read some posts claiming that #2 was basically identical to #1, but to be honest, I hadn’t heard much about #3 until now (where you claim the mushiness is gone).

Assuming Kawai didn’t pay you for this claim, and, if indeed the mushiness is gone, that’s a good thing; but I wonder, what about the ‘lightness & excessive bounciness’ that went along with the mushiness in the original GF, and purportedly in the GF-2, is that gone too?

Now, regarding the NV10 V. N1X, I place my vote for the N1X; yes, they’re both good, but the N1X is cheaper, and I simply can’t forgive Kawai for using a real damper mechanism, yet no damper sensors; what’s up with that, Kawai?

And finally, yes, Yamaha makes a better product (build quality) than Kawai, and it’s about time Kawai gets their act together and stop blaming everything on shipping (man-handling); because I am now certain that many of their products leave the factory defective.

CyberGene

Pete14 And finally, yes, Yamaha makes a better product (build quality) than Kawai, and it’s about time Kawai gets their act together and stop blaming everything on shipping (man-handling); because I am now certain that many of their products leave the factory defective.

I'm not sure how the situation has been lately with the Kawai quality but I remember how many people complained about various quality problems with their brand new Kawai digital pianos.

HZPiano

Pete14 ‘lightness & excessive bounciness’ that went along with the mushiness in the original GF, and purportedly in the GF-2, is that gone too?

As for lightness, subjectively, I was as happy playing the GFIII as I was the Millennium action in the NV10S as I was the Casio/Bechstein GP action.

As for bounciness, it is inevitable in a piano action yet I also like to have it as minimal as possible. I consider all the folded Kawai actions more bouncy than I'd like them to be -- some more so than others. With the GFIII (and Casio/Bechstein GP for that matter), I had no issues in that respect.

Cheers and happy playing,

HZPiano

CyberGene I love the N1X so much

Which, in the end, is all that really matters.

Cheers and the happiest playing,

HZPiano

CyberGene HZPiano maybe on your next visit you can take your laptop with your preferred virtual pianos and ask if you can connect them to the hybrids. That would be the ultimate test and I doubt the store would disagree since those are expensive pianos after all and one should take his time and test them thoroughly.

If I were in any serious purchase phase, yes that would be an important step to take.

🙂: Yes, this store would happily allow that

😲: I don't have a laptop of sufficient power and capacity.

Oh well. My piggybank is sounding rather hollow anyway.

Cheers and happy piggybanks,

Pete14

Might I add that I felt the NV10 action a little on the bouncy side…..

I understand that there is some bounce in ‘real’ actions, but I dislike too much of a bounce, and I feel Yamaha got it right with the N1X (the bounce).

Now, sound-wise I enjoyed both instruments; they sounded/felt lively and musical. I remember thinking I’d be happy without the need for a VST regarding the NV10/N1X.

Finally, can we at least speculate about the lemon called the N2? Surely, there must be at least a rumor about an N2X in the horizon.😁

Pete14

Oh, it’s still the same, CG; and as always, James continues blaming it on “shipping.”🤣

For the record, I’ve owned an MP-10, CA-95, and a VPC-1, and I experienced issues with all of them.

I remember an issue with uneven ‘gaps between the keys,’ and when I first reported this to Kawai they told me this was “normal” due to wood contracting and expanding; the thing is that I’m familiar with some ‘give & take’ between keys (gaps) but the Kawai situation was way more than that.

I later read about other people complaining about the same issue (Kawai later replaced my unit altogether, but still, as far as I’m concerned, admitted nothing).

vagfilm

HZPiano happy playing the GFIII as I was the Millennium action in the NV10S as I was the Casio/Bechstein GP action.

HZ: have you already reported here your experience with the casio GP action? I don't remember reading it...