M&H acoustic opportunity

Del Vento

This seems a fantastic opportunity for anybody looking for a "core" piano https://www.pianomart.com/buy-a-piano/view?id=48749

A "core" piano is one with no value per-se which can be purchased for peanuts (like this one -- note that a comparable Steinway would sell for $10k or more) and then restored to a very high quality/value. You of course will have to spend quite a bit of money to get it back in shape, but that "quite a bit" is likely be much less than you would spend for a corresponding instrument "in perfect shape" like mine. Plus, you can "customize" your choices to your taste and to what matter most to you (e.g. WNG action if you want that, brand and kind of hammers, keeping the whole cost under a set amount, e.g. 7 grands etc).

Even if your are not in Alabama (nor willing to go there) the PTG is an excellent network of professional technicians which you can easily hire remotely for an inspection (and let them discuss with your local one doing the actual repairs).

I had many of these details ready for myself (including the sleuthing search that today brought me the ad) because that is what I wanted to do myself (and instead I found an instrument in already good shape which had been restored almost to my perfect taste). As such, I will be happy to share all of that with any of you, my friends!

dore_m

That one might be worth restoring from the ground up. I think it's been said that M&H's went downhill during the Depression when they were bought by the Aeolian company in 1930. But how soon after they were bought did the quality go down? The harp looks like its from the Boston plant and not after they moved M&H to NY.

Anyway, for a full rebuild it wouldn't be a big deal - just the resale value afterward might be affected if a new buyer checks the piano geek history like I would.

Ralphiano

dore_m That one might be worth restoring from the ground up. I think it's been said that M&H's went downhill during the Depression when they were bought by the Aeolian company in 1930. But how soon after they were bought did the quality go down? The harp looks like its from the Boston plant and not after they moved M&H to NY.

Anyway, for a full rebuild it wouldn't be a big deal - just the resale value afterward might be affected if a new buyer checks the piano geek history like I would.

I note with interest the presence of the M&H name on the plate, and I wonder if this might be a sign that this piano is from the "better' era. I once had an Apollo baby grand. The Larry Fine book said it was a quality manufacturer. But, mine was actually from the Aeolian era, after they bought out Apollo. The only appearance of the Apollo name was the decal on the fallboard. The plate had no markings whatsoever indicating a brand or design or any other information. It made me wonder whether Aeolian was making generic pianos and identifying them with some of the storied brand names they had acquired.

The piano was not of any exceptional quality. In fact, it had some engineering shortcuts that were designed to save money at some small expense to the quality.

It would be interesting to learn whether the presence of a manufacturer's name on the plate of Aeolian marketed pianos reflected any fidelity to the brand's original designs.

dore_m

Ralphiano It would be interesting to learn whether the presence of a manufacturer's name on the plate of Aeolian marketed pianos reflected any fidelity to the brand's original designs.

So here's what I know (are least have heard about in the history of M&H), and also what I assume:

Aeolian bought M&H in 1930, which was right after the stock market crash and the beginning of the Depression. I would assume that back then, manufacturing/supply chains/product costdowns probably didn't happen as quickly as it does nowadays with mass manufacturing and global supplies. I've heard that the Aeolian vintage M&H's are hit or miss - some are good, some are not so good. This may be because the earlier ones resembled the pre-Depression ones more or less, before costs were cut. When M&H moved to NY, they recast the plates and removed the Boston. So one might assume that those pianos might have had more severe changes to the design and manufacturing process.

The one in the posting was probably made during this crossover period, so difficult to say how good it might have been.

Del Vento

I'll also add that among various brands, Aeolian kept M&H closer to the original than others they acquired. So even an Aeolian M&H can be good, unlike some from the 80s which seldom are. But in any case, most of the "core" of M&H DNA is there even in the worse instruments from the 80s, particularly the tension resonator, and the general oversize build (and weight). This particular one also have the best plate, so it's really an excellent opportunity if anybody is looking for that -- @CyberGene I know you are "casually" looking, if it weren't for the extreme distance (and high import duties), I'd have nudged you strongly to go for it.

Obviously anybody wanting to buy this will have to have a serious look at it, to make sure there aren't any structural damages in the body (very unlikely but not impossible) and especially in the frame (somewhat unlikely and very bad, even worse than in the rest of the body). Everything else, e.g. certainly strings and hammers will need to be replaced -so not even worth spending the time to examine those. One would possibly want to replace the bridges and pinblock (great opportunity since the strings would be out of the way) and perhaps action too, but that could be delayed to later if its current status is not horrible, and a spread-out of the investment is desired…

Regarding the Apollo, I had one too, @Ralphiano !!! Mine did have that name on the plate. It was a cute little piano, and I liked it, but obviously it was nowhere like the M&H by any stretch of the imagination (starting from the very small size, almost 2' of difference).

Del Vento

This is what a well restored one will command, in my experience about half the price of a similar Steinway and sometimes with slightly better quality https://fortcollins.craigslist.org/msd/d/berthoud-mason-hamlin-grand-piano/7465570573.html (this one is not far from me, but there are many more on the coasts -- again, happy to help anybody who might be looking).

It is sometimes possible to find a bargain at a lower price (as I did) if you are patient and are willing to negotiate -- And let me stress that negotiate does not mean ask for a lower price until you get it, but it means getting in price something non-money-related that the other party wants/need, e.g. being flexible with the timing according to their schedule, rather than yours.

dore_m

That's pretty much the restorations and such that were done on my Model A before I bought it, and price was similar, but I did get a better deal.

Note, I'd guess that if someone bought the one in your original post, they'd want to re-do the soundboard, which was not done in the second post. Mine has original soundboard also.

Del Vento

Another one which is said to be in great status and which they are having troubles selling. Great opportunity to negotiate price even further if it's really good.

https://www.pianomart.com/buy-a-piano/view?id=45010

Del Vento

CyberGene

I envy how many good grands at great prices there are in the US... Here in Europe it's still rather hard to find good grands at affordable prices and is still rather a luxury. I'm not even talking about Bulgaria because I wouldn't be surprised if the total quantity of grand pianos in the entire country is under 1000.

P.S. Those don't seem like very cheap grands though 🙂 My comment was more in general, not related to the M&H brand.

Del Vento

Ralphiano I agree that those prices are mostly high

These are the asking prices. Like in store, also in private sales the price is always negotiated, sometimes dramatically.

dore_m $15k for that 1917 Model A is actually pretty good, if it's been restored recently.

True, and if it's been restored well.

dore_m 30k for that other one though - wow

Again, one could negotiate.

CyberGene I envy how many good grands at great prices there are in the US...

That is true. I think I've already told the story explaining why, but I'll repeat it here: back during the "Golden Age of Piano" the USA was very wealth and already very spread out. Many places were remote enough that there was no entertainment opportunities. Having a piano was almost like today's having a 50" television. Many, many instruments were made and sold, there were astonishingly many brands (google that if you don't believe it). Most of them were 💩 obviously, but a decent percentage were good and the game of numbers makes that some are still decent today -- especially if they've been restored (an essay in its own wrt this word). Today, very few people care about pianos after grandma died, but they did not sell the instrument… until they need to sell the house and now the new owner wants it out by next week… Big opportunity, often (but not always) taken by the dealers… but dealer or private sale, it's a ceiling price.

On the other hand, Europe was not so wealthy to begin with, the higher population density made more opportunities for other entertainments, so fewer pianos were built in the first place. The WWI and WWII (especially the latter) destroyed many of the instruments that existed (like now in Ukraine) and hence you don't have this oversupply. Plus people tend to not sell the houses like crazy as they do in the USA, so there is also less pressure from "the new owner".

The good news is that there are a few dealers who ship oversea, like the one discussed at http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/3209284/gonew/1/piano-seller-in-lilburn-georgia-usa.html and I believe you also have one or two European "gray importers" like https://rickjonespianos.com/

Obviously, it's much more difficult, but you can do it if you're motivated (you'll have to hire a trusted, independent, remote technician, and you can do it, it's surprisingly easier than it sounds, I've done it a few times!) -- however I am not sure it'll be worth when you consider the VAT, shipping costs and other import duties, you'll have to investigate that yourself.

Ralphiano

I agree that those prices are mostly high, compared to what you could pay by purchasing directly from users who are selling and employing a quality technician to help in your selection. I think the pianos above will still sell, as there is still a sizable segment of pianists in North America who have a lot of excess cash, and do not mind paying such prices. This saves them the time of searching (their time is valuable) and also provides the peace of mind that the piano is in good condition since it comes from a "professional" seller (regardless of whether or not it is actually true).

There are many, much more affordable pianos is one invests the time and effort to search them out.

MacMacMac

I take issue with paying for peace of mind. That's a sad cliche, and I pity those who adhere to it.

Also … that second M&H claims to be a 7' model BB. Well, the BB is indeed a 7' piano, but the picture makes it look like it's under 6'. Maybe the photo was taken with a "fun house" camera?

dore_m

$15k for that 1917 Model A is actually pretty good, if it's been restored recently. 30k for that other one though - wow. If I could sell mine for that much, I would.

Hana

Del Vento

Are there resources of any sort I can read to learn more about this stuff? Not in the market currently but I'd love to get educated for the future when I'm ready to consider.

Del Vento

Hana Are there resources of any sort I can read to learn more about this stuff? Not in the market currently but I'd love to get educated for the future when I'm ready to consider.

What is "this stuff"? If you mean tricks to "buy a used piano that is great and don't spend a fortune on it", I sprinkled many in this forum, just look at my posts. If you are in a hurry and can't search them all, just look at this one which is where "most bang for bucks" are: https://pianoclack.com/forum/d/105-my-new-mh-aa/2