Native Instruments NOIRE: My new piano

David B

I’m the proud owner of a new Noire virtual piano thanks to HZPinao for trading his Noire for my VILabs Ravenscroft/True Keys. The Noire is sampled from a CFX grand that has been voiced to be warm and intimate (less attack). According to NI they selected the best 22 samples per key (out of the 70-100 sampled) to produce a smooth 22 layer dynamic curve. No Round Robbins keeps the library manageable at 16GB.

Right now it’s vying for first place over my VSL BI. The fact that it doesn’t require a dongle makes it more convenient to use at work. Also, Kontakt Player runs universal binary (Apple M1) so I can run the latency at 32 samples (lowest setting) and my MacBook Pro doesn’t even break a sweat. The only thing I miss is the lack of a soft pedal. I got used to using it with the BI and my foot keeps moving to it (muscle memory) only to be reminded that it has no effect.

Although, even without the soft pedal the dynamic range (IMO) is better than VSL’s BI. I can’t get the soft intimate sound while still maintaining the big concert grand volume with the BI like I can with the NOIRE. I’ve always gravitated towards warm/mellow sounding pianos. Both the VSL BI and the Noire are warm pianos with the Noire being a bit more intimate.

Here are my current settings:
Noire Pure
Color +10%
Reverb Vintage Plate 140 Med
Release Samples -10 db
Resonance -6 db
Overtones -20 db
Low Keys +20%
Silent Key, Repedal, and half-pedal engaged
EQ Presence +6 db
Kontakt Player EQ -3 db @ 349 Hz (this helps to bring out more clarity in the midrange)
Velocity curve Linear

Here is a beautiful hymn I recorded the other day with my VSL BI and now recorded with the Noire. I think this song sounds better with the Noire.

https://youtu.be/ayzczA79eQs

God Bless,
David

HZPiano

David B Right now it’s vying for first place over my VSL BI.

Unexpected and interesting development! 🙂

Cheers and happy playing,

PS Will watch your video later, when I can hook up to my stereo.

HZPiano

David B latency at 32 samples (lowest setting)

Wow.

HZPiano

David B now recorded with the Noire

Hi,

Both my brother and I just listened carefully, and both would like to suggest keeping an ear on that color knob.

Otherwise, comparing this with the same hymn you played 12 days ago on the VSL BI (if memory serves me well), I get the rather interesting impression that your playing is quite a bit affected -- in a good way -- by switching pianos. It seems as if you enjoy Noire (for this piece) more -- and that joy spontaneously elicits a different, more expressive, more grounded playing. Ceteris Paribus, that is.

Cheers and Enjoy,

David B

HZPiano Both my brother and I just listened carefully, and both would like to suggest keeping an ear on that color knob.

I know in your preset the color knob was at +42% and initially I thought that sounded good with the Chopin piece in Frederic L's comparison page, but +42% sounded a little too bright when I was actually playing the instrument. I kept incrementally backing off the color knob from 42% and ended up at zero. 😀 I added +10% just to bring some attack back in. You think a little more color is needed? Thanks for the input. More experimenting is necessary as these settings are just preliminary.

HZPiano I get the rather interesting impression that your playing is quite a bit affected -- in a good way -- by switching pianos. It seems as if you enjoy Noire (for this piece) more -- and that joy spontaneously elicits a different, more expressive, more grounded playing.

This piano does elicit a different emotional response when I play. It seems that easier access to the PP dynamic encourages me. I could never comfortably get the PP or PPP touch with BI. That's why I was always using the soft pedal.

God Bless,
David

vagfilm

Hi. I side with HZPiano in this one as I prefer the tone in your previous video (it does not say in YT, but from the comments I assume it is BI. I will not discuss your playing, that keeps improving and improving... Maybe I have to take your Duane courses. Congrats).
It is clear that you prefer mellower attacks. In my opinion both VSL bosendorfers have mellower attacks than the other VSL pianos. Noire is even mellower. I am on the opposite side and prefer some bite in the attack or otherwise it sounds a bit synthetic to my ears.
The second thing is about the reverb that is much more pronounced in your Noire preset. Maybe it is prejudice, but I always prefer the VST that achieves a nice tone with less reverb (or none at all). VSL pianos can do that by using the room mics, and it sounds more natural to me.

HZPiano

Then,

Let me second vagfilm on the reverb.

For exposed playing, I prefer no reverb. As soon as I add even the slightest reverb, the piano gets distance, moving away from me and crossing the illusion of actually playing a piano. The same goes for 'room mic' samples; they destroy that illusion too.

For solo, personal playing (which is all I do), I didn't need reverb with Noire. Same with the VI Labs pianos. I cannot comment on other libraries, but would think I'd have similar findings there.

Cheers and the happiest playing,

David B

vagfilm In my opinion both VSL bosendorfers have mellower attacks than the other VSL pianos. Noire is even mellower.

For sure.

vagfilm I am on the opposite side and prefer some bite in the attack or otherwise it sounds a bit synthetic to my ears.

It's interesting because that smooth (almost synthetic) sound is what appealed to me in some of the YT demos of Noire that I watched. Maybe it's the tinnitus in my ears. 😀 Less attack doesn't aggravate it so much. Dang, I wish I didn't shoot guns for so many years. ☹

vagfilm The second thing is about the reverb that is much more pronounced in your Noire preset. Maybe it is prejudice, but I always prefer the VST that achieves a nice tone with less reverb (or none at all).

I was really hoping that the Noire Pure preset would be what the piano sounded like in the natural environment (Saal 3, Funkhaus Berlin) but that preset was so dry. They must of somehow removed any natural ambiance. Of course I cold be mistaken. The Noire "in concert" preset does include the Saal 3 reverb, but I don't think that preset is the most natural sound of the piano in its environment. I would love to have a preset that gets me as close as possible to what Nils Frahm's hears when he sits down and plays his piano in Sasl 3. I'll be experimenting more. Thanks for the input.

God Bless,
David

vagfilm

Let me clarify a bit. VSL pianos have close, mid, decca tree, and then room mics. I don't use the room mic (neither for play or for listening; the mid and decca mics are enough and just the enough ambience). Mid and even Decca adds room without adding too much distance. My point is that if someone really wants some large room ambience, in VSL (and Garritan) can do that through samples without using canned reverb. Maybe a top reverb plugin is better than the samples, but to me samples are better because I am not an audio engineer and just choose a reverb preset.

David B

vagfilm My point is that if someone really wants some large room ambience, in VSL (and Garritan) can do that through samples without using canned reverb.

Yeah, in VSL I don't add any reverb. Using some of the non-close mics is enough. I really love how the sound can be shaped with mic options in VSL. It can be drastic but it's always natural.

God Bless,
David

Frédéric L

I have get Inspirata Reverb when it was free.

The idea is to choose a room from famous one (and less famous). It can be useful, but with virtual pianos recorded in a « usual » room (not an anechoid one), the natural reverb is ok for me.

David B

Frédéric L The idea is to choose a room from famous one (and less famous). It can be useful, but with virtual pianos recorded in a « usual » room (not an anechoid one), the natural reverb is ok for me.

As I mentioned to vagfilm, I really wanted a Noire preset that captured Nils' CFX in Saal 3. Maybe that's what the Pure preset is and Saal 3 is more acoustically anechoic? Perhaps I should see if I could get this question answered. I wonder if Nils has an email address. 😀

God Bless,
David

Del Vento

David B Less attack doesn't aggravate it so much.

Keep in mind that the attack is really hard for the whole analog audio chain (DAC, ampli, speakers) to "get right". You need a really broadband response to be flat for that, so that might be playing a role too.

That said, for some instruments (e.g. Pianoteq) I definitely prefer more and more attack, whereas for others (e.g. your Noire) I'm fine without it. For a moment I thought that you were that other guy playing a Noire that you posted, and I almost fell off my chair… Then I realized who-is-who, and even if you are not making me fall off my chair (yet?) you are really getting great at playing!

HZPiano

David B Perhaps I should see if I could get this question answered. I wonder if Nils has an email address. 😀

That would be interesting for sure.

Looking at the imagery of Noire, the walls have a lot of acoustic treatment on them (or so it seems to me). Maybe the room isn't that present in the sampling compared to e.g. Garritan or VSL. Which, to me, is a good thing by the way and is part of why I have a preference for the VI Labs approach. Noire feels close enough as well.

Keep us posted on your experiments, always interesting.

(And yes, that tinnitus sure does affect what one can stand from a piano. I'm not without it myself and it definitely is an unfortunate condition.)

Cheers and have a nice experimental weekend,

David B

Del Vento For a moment I thought that you were that other guy playing a Noire that you posted, and I almost fell off my chair…

I wish! That dude is a virtuoso. I think the potential for me to develop virtuoso skills would have existed if I started as a child. That could be true for many people, but I know how dedicated I get when I become hyper-fixated on something. If I didn't have to work and raise a family, I would comfortably spend 5 hours a day playing the piano. However, since I started in my 40's I realize that I can practice 5 hours a day until Jesus comes and I'll never possess virtuoso skills. Therefore, I'm content to play my little hymns.

God Bless,
David

David B

Getting the velocity dialed in on the Noire is a bit more challenging compared to some other VI software I’ve used. Purchasing Kontakt 6 helped by revealing the 22 velocity layers (zones in Kontakt nomenclature) and helping me to see the velocity mapping more accurately. From there I was able to see what zones are being activated at different key velocities. I’ve never seen which layers (zones) were being activated in software before, so that’s pretty cool. Still the entire process is a bit cumbersome.

Each zone is assigned a range of velocities and both the input and output of every keypress (based on the zones) is identified. Combine that with the Kontakt velocity curve editor and you can really see what’s going on.

The NOIRE software gives some options to change the velocity input/output across the entire range, e.g., softest, softer, soft, linear, hard, harder, hardest. They even have some custom ones for their Kontrol keyboards.

Linear is the default setting which is even i.e., 50 input/50 output. Currently, I’m working with “Hard” which bumps the velocity output by approximately 10 or two zones. However, even then my N1X in the default touch setting comes up a bit short of the 22 zones. So I use the Kontakt velocity curve editor to increase even more the higher velocities to get me to the last few zones.

It really takes a lot of experimenting and playing, but I know that once it’s dialed in it’s going to be a great piano. It has power with the ability to sound warm and intimate. So far I’m liking it better than my VSL stuff. Here is an excerpt from a hymn I’m arranging called, “Can you hear the Savior calling?”

https://youtu.be/DFt4RwBmz-E

God Bless,
David

David B

It’s interesting how listening to a recording of yourself playing changes your perspective. After listening to the previous recording I felt the attack was a little too aggressive. Therefore, I switched back to the “Linear” setting in NOIRE, but bumped up velocity curve in Kontakt so that I ended up splitting the difference with the previous setting.

The “Hard” setting in NOIRE raised the velocity around 14 from the actual input (a little more than two zones) throughout the entire spectrum. With the Linear setting and Kontakt velocity curve adjustment, I split the difference across most of the range taking a bit of the edge off the attack. It’s subtle, but I like it better. It’s important to take a step back and listen to a recording to help you focus more on the sound.

Here is the same passage with the slightly lighter velocity adjustment.

https://youtu.be/X_xmBfS2Xbc

God Bless,
David

HZPiano

David B Linear setting

In the early stages with Noire where I was hugely puzzled by the default settings and the totally-off piano sound it produced, I experimented a lot with those soft-softer hard-harder settings and came to the conclusion only the Linear was viable, in combination with a custom curve in that nice user friendly (😬) editor.

So now your explorations lead to that same discovery/conclusion. Nice!

Cheers and happy subtleties,

vagfilm

David B After listening to the previous recording I felt the attack was a little too aggressive.

Funny... I rather prefer the attack of the first version. And to my ears it serves your playing (and arrangement) better than the mellower curve. But I like the d274 among all VSL libraries, so that explains it. 😊

David B

vagfilm Funny... I rather prefer the attack of the first version. And to my ears it serves your playing (and arrangement) better than the mellower curve. But I like the d274 among all VSL libraries, so that explains it. 😊

I remember getting the VSL Steinway when it first came out and the attack was crazy aggressive and excessively percussive. It was actually a velocity mapping problem that was solved with an update shortly thereafter. However, I still found the attack too aggressive even after the update. I enjoy hearing good pianists play the the library, although, I feel it's a little too aggressive for my unrefined ability.

This is why I like the NOIRE so much. Nils Frahm's CFX was voiced deliberately to be warm and mellow. It has a good baseline to start with for those who who are looking for a less percussive and warmer sound. Of course with velocity editors more can be brought out of the piano if desired.

God Bless,
David