Microphone to record musical instrument

Del Vento

@David B The audio sounds pretty good. What did you capture it with?

@Del Vento Thank you.

I captured it with my smartphone, a Samsung A50. It's decent, but lacks ambiance/air and the dynamics are very subdued/compressed.

I should add that in the past I played with using a good serious (but still affordable) microphone. It was the MX-770 Diaphragm Cardioid Condenser Microphone, which needed phantom power provided by a 3rd Generation Scarlett Solo 2x2 USB Audio Interface. I found the extremely finicky to use correctly, and in 95% of the times produced much worse recording than the phone. Occasionally when I got everything "magically right", it recorded much better in terms of air and dynamics, but other things (such as frequency response and the likes) were not very different. After 28 days of struggling to learn how to use them correctly I returned both. My hat to those who can make these things sing, for me the phone is decent enough, with its limitations

dore_m

Let me just say that mics are probably alot like piano VST's. You fork out a bunch of money not knowing if you'll like them, and then when they don't meet your expectations, you tweak and tweak until they're acceptable. For Mic's, that involves EQ'ing and other post production tricks. I suppose it could be the same for Piano VST's, but many of the controls are within the VSTs themselves.

Del Vento

dore_m you tweak and tweak until they're acceptable

Yeah, I figured out it was something of that nature and I tried learning about it. But it turned out to be random walk in an n-dimensional space with very poor direction. In the end, I decided that it was not worth my time, life is short and I preferred learning to play rather than becoming a sound engineer - especially because the phone is "good enough"

dore_m

One thing that I learned, that might help others, is that most modern mics (including the MX-770 I think) follow the industry standard Neumann U87 frequency response (roughly). The response is pretty flat, but accentuates the higher frequencies, the upper vocal frequencies into the 10khz range (I think). This results in a nice podcast or vocal sound, but maybe a bit tinny or harsh at times for other instruments, including piano. The cheaper "U87" knockoffs especially are usually harsh-sounding.

Either buy nicer mics or use an EQ to tamp down those frequencies.

Del Vento

dore_m but maybe a bit tinny or harsh at times for other instruments, including piano.

Thanks. That is indeed very good to know.

FWIW, it was not my gripe. I think frequency/timbre wise it was fine. The mic was just too sensitive to the most soft background noise, e.g. breath from another person, distant in the room, sounded like it was blowing directly on the diaphragm. The quality of the result was also extremely dependent on exact placement: moving it by only a tiny amount changed how it responded. Both very good thing if you want a realistic capture, but very frustrating for a causal user like myself. The phone is instead very forgiving. If just had more dynamic range (which I could probably artificially extend, and I even experimented with the Dolby app with positive preliminary results) it would be perfect for me.

dore_m

Del Vento The mic was just too sensitive to the most soft background noise, e.g. breath from another person, distant in the room, sounded like it was blowing directly on the diaphragm.

Yes, I record my piano after my family goes to sleep, telling them it will only take about 15 minutes. I unplug the refrigerator, and avoid recording in the day or morning when birds are out. if I hear a car drive by, I re-start. I cover my laptop with damping material so if the fan goes on it won't be too obvious.

But that work does get me the wide dynamic range needed for piano. Widening a compressed signal sounds challenging. Controlling the environment and getting a perfect recording does avoid hours/days/weeks worth of post production work.

Del Vento

dore_m I unplug the refrigerator, and avoid recording in the day or morning when birds are out. if I hear a car drive by, I re-start. I cover my laptop with damping material so if the fan goes on it won't be too obvious.

You are very patient 🙂

dore_m But that work does get me the wide dynamic range needed for piano.

Yes, for your sampling purpose is essential. To record my approximate playing, I can live with the compressed dynamics.

dore_m Widening a compressed signal sounds challenging.

For real, yes. Probably impossible, or anyway recreating the problems I wanted to avoid.
Faking it, I've gotten nice (preliminary) results with the official Dolby App. Give it a try.

CyberGene

dore_m I cover my laptop with damping material so if the fan goes on it won't be too obvious.

You may want to check the MacBook Air M1. It’s as powerful as the most highest-specced Intel-based laptops, yet has passive cooling and never even gets hot. It’s a perfect audio recording laptop IMO.

dore_m

CyberGene You may want to check the MacBook Air M1

I'd really have to start charging money for piano libraries…. Actually fan and continuous background noise is easy to remove nowadays. It's the non periodic and unexpected impulses that take real time to remove. Piano bench creaks, clicks, birds, background tv noise…

Del Vento

Recording the same "performance" with two identical phones, Samsung A50, one with the Android Dolby app, the other with the stock video/camera app. The settings for the Dolby app are default (you can change eq, noise cancellation and more):

You tell me the difference, if any.

navindra

My take from this, is that for an amateur recording, MIDI will almost always trump.

Some acoustic guitars have recording pickups installed. Do acoustic pianos have any such equivalent or is that just MIDI?

Del Vento

navindra My take from this, is that for an amateur recording, MIDI will almost always trump.

That's sort of OT here. There are times when one does want to record audio, and not MIDI, which this conversation is about. For example, to compare how much better my acoustic grand sound compared to a digital 🙂

navindra Some acoustic guitars have recording pickups installed. Do acoustic pianos have any such equivalent or is that just MIDI?

Potentially that is possible. It was common in the past as described at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_grand_piano but I have never heard about it in the last 20 years.

dore_m For me I think the Dolby does increase the range and brightness, but also adds some artifacts. At the moderate volume, the non-Dolby recording sounds more realistic.

That is why I am not using it by default yet.

dore_m If you like, I can set up some of my mics and show you different positions and such. Then again, I suppose there are youtube videos on this already. The one below allows you to see how the room affects the sound, as well as the cardioid/omni mic pickup patterns.

Thanks for the offer. If it's just for me, do not worry.

In fact, I watched that and many similar videos when I had the mic I mentioned earlier. Mic positioning made a huge difference, to the level of being skittish (one placement ok, moved 5mm trying to improve, awful, moved "back" to where it was, "barely decent"). With the phone, it does not make so much of a difference. Life is too short to master everything, so I'm passing on learning sound engineering for piano. I am still on the fence WRT the Dolby App, but not holding my breath for that either.

dore_m

For me I think the Dolby does increase the range and brightness, but also adds some artifacts. At the moderate volume, the non-Dolby recording sounds more realistic.

If you like, I can set up some of my mics and show you different positions and such. Then again, I suppose there are youtube videos on this already. The one below allows you to see how the room affects the sound, as well as the cardioid/omni mic pickup patterns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQSCvJEnHEo

dore_m

Del Vento I am still on the fence WRT the Dolby App, but not holding my breath for that either.

Before you buy the Dolby App, I'd try to just adjust EQ to see if you can accentuate some of the frequencies. For me the artifacts make the piano sound unnatural, too "warbly".

Del Vento

dore_m Before you buy the Dolby App, I'd try to just adjust EQ to see if you can accentuate some of the frequencies. For me the artifacts make the piano sound unnatural, too "warbly".

I have the app. It appears to be fully functional (including the EQ), and I am sure I did not buy it. I don't think there is a premium version or premium features to unlock with a purchase.

Interesting your comment about the higher frequencies. I hear some differences, but not so drastic. But then, my aging ears are probably not that good in high frequencies. I will ask my young daughters for their opinion.

Del Vento

dore_m adjust EQ to see if you can accentuate some of the frequencies

dore_m Actually, what I meant was to use an EQ to accentuate frequencies so you can make it sound closer to the real instrument.

Thanks for the clarification. I asked my daughter to do that. She gave it 5 minutes before going to school this morning and concluded that the default settings of the Android Dolby App (with flat curve on further EQ) sounds the closest to the piano in the condition it was recorded: lid closed, fly open, listening from where the phone was placed. I then asked her to compare the Dolby vs the regular App and she said that as much as timbre is concerned they sound almost the same to her (but she was becoming nervous because it was time to leave, and said she might give another listen tonight). My older ears somewhat agree. The trouble is, the main change of the Dolby App is the marginally louder volume and the marginally wide stereo image, so comparison is hard (I'll have to see if I can turn both off and see what else is left).

She tested it with her favorite headphones, Superlux HD681, which for some unknown-to-me reasons she prefers to the (marginally better, IMHO, but 3x more expensive) Philips SHP9500

dore_m

Del Vento Interesting your comment about the higher frequencies. I hear some differences, but not so drastic. But then, my aging ears are probably not that good in high frequencies.

Actually, what I meant was to use an EQ to accentuate frequencies so you can make it sound closer to the real instrument. Since only you have that instrument, only you or your family can compare it to the recording.

dore_m

Del Vento She tested it with her favorite headphones, Superlux HD681, which for some unknown-to-me reasons she prefers to the (marginally better, IMHO, but 3x more expensive) Philips SHP9500

Of course, the headphones and audio equipment play a role. Makes me realize that when I create my instruments with my Sony MDR-V6's, which are pretty flat monitor headphones from the 80/90's, it will not sound the same if someone uses more modern headphones like Beats, which have evolved more bass-heavy. Bottom line is make it for yourself, and for whatever you use to listen with since you're only satisfying yourself anyway.