Trills in J.S. Bach D-Minor Fugue from WTK Book 1

MHirsch

In the Busoni's edition of WTK the trills look like this:

Busoni is highly detailed and tells how to play pretty much everything. And almost everyone I ever heard playing this fugue, plays exactly as written above:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLSq7hEmb4c

Well, almost. Sir András Schiff plays those trills differently, he starts a trill with the first note of the next bar. And to me, it's changing the fugue completely. From a very clear and dry harpsichord-like to a still baroque but at the same time romantic sound:

https://youtu.be/0fU5XAD8UYg?t=133

Now I'd like to know which version sounds better to you 😀

I ended up learning Schiff's version.

QuasiUnaFantasia

Whether it's partly due to the difference in trill, I don't know, but the softer and more romantic Schiff version sounds much better to me. [Full disclosure: Bach is really not my thing, nor is any other pre-classical music.] 🙂

MHirsch

QuasiUnaFantasia

There is a never-ending holy war about "how to play WTK". I believe it boils down to "Bach was writing for the instrument he had" (meaning no pedal use, no dynamics, …) vs "But if he would have had a modern piano…".

CyberGene

I have always played that fugue (and actually any trill in various genres and from various composers, except when explicitly stated otherwise) starting with the upper note 🙂 I'm sure there are scholars that can prove one or the other in numerous pages and with actual historical arguments, but to me trills in most cases just sound better when started from above 😀

MHirsch

CyberGene

Well, the way I learned it in the school was, "baroque trills start with the lower note, classical and later start with the upper note". And to me it works out OK, but not for this particular fugue.

QuasiUnaFantasia

MHirsch I'm aware of it. 🙂 And I personally have Gould's version, and I have Barenboim's version. I only ever listen to Barenboim's. There. I've said it. (And I thought COVID was the most controversial subject conceivable in PianoClack). 😂

Pete14

With Bach it is not a matter of ‘which sounds better to us’, but rather, which sounds better to you. Period! End of a sentence!

And I’m not being snarky, it’s just the truth; if you don’t believe me, ask Bach, himself, through his music, or a seance through the agency of a medium.

Now, that being said, I would personally burn all of Busoni’s “arrangements/transcriptions” because he is missing the entire point of how Bach envisioned ‘ornamentations’; which, let’s face it, a trill is an ornament.

Schiff’s approach works ‘musically’, and it is his favorite, so it doesn’t matter if you don’t like it; and that is the whole point of it:

Bach gives us liberty to make these decisions on our own; and this also goes for tempo and overall interpretation; because, guess what, the music itself will tell you everything you need to know about ‘how to play it’; that, and also your cultural and musical background.

A ‘jazz’ musician might start the trill from ‘the bottom note’ (two bars earlier), and that would be fine, if he’s happy with it; Schiff, as you say, starts the trill “with the first note of the next bar”; that’s also fine, even if it sounds too romantic for you.

So, please, I beg you, don’t obsess over none-essentials (trills), and stay away from Busoni!

MHirsch

Pete14

Yeah, that'd be a great post for the WTK holy war 😄

And no, I don't think Shiff is playing too romantically - it's about the right amount of romantic.

Though I disagree that a trill in this particular fugue is just an ornamentation. I'd say it's an essential part.

My musical background is one of a violin player. Can't recall ongoing holy wars on Bach, normally everyone agreed that too much of vibrato is a bad taste, that's it.

Having said that, I won't burn my Busoni edition, it's too convenient to learn.

MHirsch

QuasiUnaFantasia 😆

That's pretty much the only version I totally dislike 😁

QuasiUnaFantasia

MHirsch What's to dislike about it? Bach's WTK is the best Debussy Barenboim has ever produced! 🤣

MHirsch

QuasiUnaFantasia Ah, now it makes sense! I thought he was producing Mozart! Will give it another try 🤣

vagfilm

Frankly, they both sound good and appropriate, and in this case I agree they are more than an ornament. But Gould's voice separation and clarity continues to astonish me...

MHirsch

vagfilm Same here.

vagfilm

Btw, any opinions on Keith Jarrett's live recording of WTC (not the older studio recording, but a recent launch of a 20 or 30 years old recording)? I recently bought it and only casually listened, and it was a pleasure (more than Schiff's, but I have a pet peeve with Schiff).
Have to check how the scholar Jarrett plays that trill.

CyberGene

vagfilm I haven’t listened to Jarrett’s live recording, however his studio recording of WTC1 for ECM is probably my favorite WTC1. It is surprisingly good, especially taking in mind he is a jazz pianist.

MHirsch

vagfilm

Well, not my cup of tea. Too much of legato, the voices don't have their own space to breath, everything melts down somehow. Musically: yes. Polyphonically: no.

TomLC

CyberGene I believe Keith Jarrett was a classical pianist before he took up jazz. The Koln concert, played on an out-of-tune and poorly prepared piano, is highly regarded. If you haven’t heard it, you may want to look it up.

CyberGene

TomLC thanks, the Köln Concert wast the first cassette of Jarrett that I bought when I was a teenager. Highly influential on me and my further jazz attempts at the time.

vagfilm

There are many examples in Jarrett improvisation that showcase his Bach influence, but I am particularly fond of the middle section of the Lausanne concert, his first solo improvisation recording. If Bach was in a stage in 197something, I believe he would play exactly like that... (the segment is easy to find because it is after he plucks the strings - poor piano...)

So sad for the poor man cause he will probably never play again...

vagfilm

Well... He plucks and bangs on the piano for most of the concert... For anyone interested, I just checked and it starts at about 33:50 on the Lausanne concert (in the CD; in the original LPs the section is halfway in Part IIa).