Repertoire suggestions are welcome: beginner / classical

vagfilm

Since this forum has been a bit slow on the piano portion (lots of forum-related discussion, and a few owner's reports), I will take one for the team and start a piano-learning discussion. I expect to take a lot of flak, but thickish-skin here…

I am a piano beginner, after a few decades of classical guitar (formal guitar classes for several years as a young kid, although never took exams because that was not my goal…). Guitar has been collecting dust for a few years because the slope of progression in classical guitar repertoire is brutal: it's either boring countless minuettos or virtuoso pieces. For the non-virtuoso, the repertoire is appalling, in my opinion.

Finally decided to took on piano a few months ago, for the love of it and because I needed some cognitive challenge outside of work (neuroscientist here!!! Very familiar with the work of the Nobel prize winners of yesterday, which were, BTW, a surprising choice - very good work they did, but there are literally hundreds of others at that caliber).

I am self-teaching with periodic (but very spaced) online feedback/lesson/comment from my sister-in-law that is a piano teacher but lives in a different city. Because of my guitar background, I have set my learning goals reasonable and in order: my priority is to get hand independence (guitar is terrible for that because there is always absolute syncopation: one hand presses the neck note while the other hand plucks the string…), and slowly get the hang of dynamics, legato, and having even touch across fingers. For that I do scales exercises (50% of practice time), and the only piece that I ever practiced is Bach's Prelude CMaj (WTC 1-1), that I have chosen because I felt it would be a good match for my technical goals.

I am open to suggestions on my next pieces to practice (I intend to practice 2 or even 3 pieces at the same time - one as main focus, and the others for slow advance). I thought of staying on Bach - something tells me it will be a good foundation for the future, and I am in no rush of getting to the romantics… I have a few ideas, and curious to know if any matches your suggestions.

Bring on the criticism…

mmatthew

Hi vagfilm

I am a beginner who dabbled about here and there. I have less than 3 years experience of learning. I have attempted some bold Chopin pieces but always fell back to Bach beginner repertoire after the humbling experience.

I use pianolibrary.org, which ranks pieces by difficulty. Although I am confident I can attempt level 2, I try to finish the Bach pieces of Level 1. Main reason is I find Bach gives you a workout of both LH and RH.

I strongly suggest checking out pianolibrary.org for pieces by increasing level of difficulty.

Drew-r

vagfilm

vagfilm Since this forum has been a bit slow on the piano portion (lots of forum-related discussion, and a few owner's reports), I will take one for the team and start a piano-learning discussion. I expect to take a lot of flak ....

To the contrary, i do not expect you to take much flak .... yeah, at barely 3 days old, the new’phoria has not worn away, yet .... and i sincerely think there are several members here already who’d not hesitate to take one for the team 🙂

Interesting bio you gave Vagfilm. I have been in home care nearly 5 years after 30-plus years in tech support. I see a lot of various dementias and plain senility, and of course at 62 there is increasingly concern in the back of my mind to be on the lookout for my own neuron health 🤔

Have you found any musical benefit from many years on guitar transferring to your piano endeavor? I had 2 years of formal lessons mid 2013 to 15’ before having 20 year’s employment terminated , so ive been struggling with going alone too ..... and fellow beginner Matttoo .

Stay the course friends!

Deleted

vagfilm On the other hand, I am finally (but slowly) understanding the logic of harmony and chords (that is insanely difficult in the guitar, because instead of a linear keyboard you have a staggered fretboard: you simply memorize the hand position for a particular chord without any hope of understanding the notes intervals between strings).

I use my guitalele to teach intervals by fretting one string: starting with the octave by just halving its length. Then I let students find all the intervals I fret on the piano keyboard. Once they understand why the frets aren't evenly spaced and why some intervals sound more harmonic than others, I conveyed the bare essentials of harmonics. (I obviously don't teach guitar chords, because that would be off topic.)

vagfilm I am self-teaching with periodic (but very spaced) online feedback/lesson/comment from my sister-in-law that is a piano teacher but lives in a different city.

I would suggest 9 months of beginner lessons to nail down essential keyboard technique. And then with your history on guitar I would actually not go to reciting classical repertoire on the piano, and instead look for something different, more focused on improvisation.

When I broadened my scope from classical piano to guitar, I explicitly avoided classical guitar teachers to not end up with the same practicing classical repertoire ad nauseam. If you explore the piano in more unconventional ways, it will actually reflect back on what you play on your guitar.

arc

mmatthew I think you should take the ranking in pianolibrary.org, like any other ranking, with a big grain of salt. At least, have a look at different rankings such as Henle's, ABRSM's or https://pianosyllabus.com/ to get different opinions.

I would be careful using pianolibrary.org to select Bach repertoire. I find some of the Bach pieces ranked way too low on the scale. For example, several two-part Inventions and a few three voice compositions are ranked in level 1.5. I would certainly not call these "beginner" pieces.

I would humbly suggest that you do not focus exclusively on Bach since you will be mostly practicing contrapunctual compositions. This is not negative but you should add pieces from other periods and styles to diversify your playing and technique. For example check Tchaikovsky Children's Album (Op 39 - check pieces 1, 2, 6, 7, 16, 18, 24) (imslp). Many other composers have similar collections (e.g. Schumann, Türk, Bartok). You can also add a few contemporary non-classical pieces. For example, have a look at composers like Yann Tiersen or Einaudi. If you want to add some Chopin to the list you can try the Waltz in Am (B.150).

David B

I don't know if it's this way for classical, but for the music I play (spiritual/hymns), I first find songs that I really love. Then I start out with easy versions of them to play that matches my skill level. The songs then evolve along with my ability over time.

Find what classical pieces you would really like to learn and then see if there are easy versions of them to match your skill level. That way you stay motivated playing music you actually enjoy.

God Bless,
David

P.S. I got the idea from a piano course I was taking. One of the songs we learned was Liebestraum (Liszt) and it was an easy version of the song. Maybe there is other classical music like that.

Drew-r

David B

DavidB, are you familiar with David Nevue?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxcPPfSVyRs

vagfilm

I did not know pianolibrary.org, and it seems interesting. I get my scores from IMSLP…

As a beginner I like Bach because a robotic Bach sounds nice, a robotic Mozart sounds strange, and a robotic Beethoven sounds even worse (even Fur Elise which is a piece I cannot stand even if my life would depend on it). A robotic Chopin sounds like "jeez… you should be playing something else…"

It also helps to have binged in all Gould's Bach recordings for the last 30 years.

David B

Drew-r Interesting bio you gave Vagfilm. I have been in home care nearly 5 years after 30-plus years in tech support. I see a lot of various dementias and plain senility, and of course at 62 there is increasingly concern in the back of my mind to be on the lookout for my own neuron health 🤔

Uh-oh, off topic here, but my mother died of an Alzheimer's related illness, and my father is suffering with Parkinson's disease. I just started taking a Lion's Mane (mushroom) supplement because some studies have shown that it can improve neuro-health. I'm trying to stay ahead of the curve.

God Bless,
David

P.S. this is s good thread topic if someone wants to start it. Neuro-health and the piano.

vagfilm

Drew-r Have you found any musical benefit from many years on guitar transferring to your piano endeavor

From a technical point of view, very few apart from finger dexterity… Guitar is all about intonation and direct string control. In the piano you have the key which is a frustratingly mechanical piece that prevents you from modulating the string and a pedal which requires a third moving limb and will take me years to control let alone master (again, Bach is good because you can forget the pedal…). The only important thing is that music is music, and melodic control is melodic control, and if you trained yourself to play mellow or fierce, that translates to the piano (or to the tuba…).

On the other hand, I am finally (but slowly) understanding the logic of harmony and chords (that is insanely difficult in the guitar, because instead of a linear keyboard you have a staggered fretboard: you simply memorize the hand position for a particular chord without any hope of understanding the notes intervals between strings).

And did I mention that in the guitar you train your left hand to have the fingers pointing at you, while the right hand hs the fingers pointing away from you?

[deleted]

I wanted to play the flute when I was 6 but my hands were too small then. The teacher said to take up piano until my hands got bigger. I took lessons until I was 16 and then have spent the last 46 years self-teaching with off again and on again bouts at the piano and some spans of years no piano at all.

I always wanted to play Chopin and Beethoven pieces way over my head. The teacher said “no” so that’s when I quit the lessons. I think your idea of working on several pieces at once is good. Having started playing again seriously this is how I do it. I work on one extremely difficult piece and some much less difficult ones as well. That way I get enjoyment playing the ones I know well and it gives me a day or two away from the difficult one.

I find that if I work on one piece too much I stop getting better. But if I take a day or two away from It I notice gradual improvements which is very satisfying.

Teacher was probably right as now I feel old enough and disciplined enough to learn those tough ones which I am now doing.

Do you like other composers besides Bach? I have been interested in some Liszt pieces lately but I’m not a fan of all of his music. Just some. And since they present certain technical challenges I do scales and arpeggios and other exercises that stress those same difficulties.

vagfilm

[deleted] Nowadays I almost don't listen to Bach, and Rachmaninov is my go to while driving. But my ultimate (never achievable) goal? Probably my favorite piano piece? Liszt's Bénédiction de Dieu dans la Solitude…

QuasiUnaFantasia

David B I take Lion's mane on and off. My experience is that memorization is much easier during periods when I take Lion's mane. So much better, in fact, that I am considering making Lion's mane a persistent part of my diet (as in, taking it every three days, or so).

[deleted]

vagfilm I love that Bénédiction piece too! I have the music score but I’m still nervous about attempting it! I’ll probably look at it for a couple years until I get the nerve to start it. Right now I’m working Liszt’s transcription of Schubert’s Ave Maria. I still have a couple months to go on that one. He has a fairly easy piece too I’m working on called Romance s.168 “Oh pourquoi, donc !” Which you might want to take a listen to and see if you want to try that one. I think you can download a free pdf of that one.

vagfilm

When I say "mental challenge" I don't mean actual mental problems… I am 51 with a preschooler in my home. I meant literally "mental challenge": something that is different from work, and challenges portions of your brain that are becoming sleepy because even in a research lab environment, a lot of things are just routines (boring routines)…

[deleted]

Another piece I enjoy is Beethoven’s Adieu to the Piano. Fairly easy to learn

vagfilm

There is something about Beethoven short pieces that rubs me the wrong way, and I find them extremely pedestrian. Same thing with Scarlatti versus Bach. Surely my fault… I enjoy a lot of his sonatas, though (specially Op.111), although I think I may need to borrow better fingers for the final trills.

Ralphiano

I highly recommend the learner pieces by Alexandre Tansman. He reportedly felt that the standard young learner fare was tedious, repetitive and uninspiring. So, he devoted a lot of energy to composing very interesting pieces for beginners. I am not sure I would have continued to learn piano if I had not discovered his very interesting and enjoyable beginner music.

If you want to hear some of it, much of his stuff has been recorded at the University of Iowa Piano Pedagogy Project site on YouTube. The pieces are played by University music professors. The recordings are technically accurate, though, I find that there is much room to improve on the performances as you learn the pieces. Several of his pieces have made it into the RCM curriculum.

Much of his music is readily available from the usual sources (Amazon, music stores, etc.). Some of his works are near impossible to find. I had to wait weeks for a couple of his books to arrive through a nationwide university library sharing system. But, it was well worth the wait.

Also, several of his children's collections were recently recorded by a lesser known professional pianist with a Polish name, and some of those CDs have made their way onto YouTube. The play is a little uninspiring, but, you can still hear the interesting nature of the music.

I still play Tansman pieces from 3-4 years ago daily, typically to warm up before practicing. I still enjoy hearing them and working on improving my musicianship while playing them.

Ampersand

I am doing the RCM program.

You know exactly what scales, arpeggios, broken chords, repertoire, etudes, etc for each level.

I also have a teacher so that helps.

Here is the syllabus if you are interested:

https://files.rcmusic.com//sites/default/files/files/RCM-Piano-Syllabus-2015.pdf

David B

Drew-r DavidB, are you familiar with David Nevue?

No, I'm not, but that was very pretty. Thank you for sharing it.

God Bless,
David

Monoch

@vagfilm If staying with Bach, some of the well-known minuets of the Notebook for Anna Magdalena always rank up high for beginner repertoire, and they are also very good for training hand independence. For example the Minuets in G Major and G Minor (BWV Anh 114-115). They are now usually attributed to Petzold rather than Bach.

QuasiUnaFantasia

The technical demands in Satie's famous (and widely beloved) Gymnopedie's and Gnossienne's are not very high, so they should be excellent beginner material. Also, both Schumann and Tchaikovsky wrote entire collections of music for teaching piano playing: "Album for the Young" is the name given to both collections. The music in all these works is terrific, in my opinion.