Action Comparison: Yamaha Grand Touch S vs Numa GT TP400

David B

Here is a comparison between the Grand Touch S action on the Yamaha P525 and the TP400 on the Numa X Piano GT. Are single key repetitions important to you and would that influence your decision on which action/piano you would buy?

God Bless,
David

HZPiano

David B

Nice! Something interesting to watch over breakfast.

🙂

Julio

Probably the best action comparison I've ever seen. I liked especially the last part about Midi output. Would love to see you review Casio GP line actions…

David Lai

Really cool, David! Glad you're liking the Modern D. I'm still enjoying it since the hipe stopped. It's a very good virtual instrument for long-term use.

For me, I'd love to be able to repeat notes rapidly, so I'd take the Yamaha P-525.

David B

Julio Would love to see you review Casio GP line actions…

I've heard their action and midi combo is really good. @Taushi I believe owns one and has given the action and midi function high praise and he is a very good classical pianist.

For some reason I get the impression that the action might perform well with single key repetitions. 😀

https://youtu.be/ZhbkRYVPkSc?si=7Lnr-5p2hXTv0YiJ

David B

David Lai Really cool, David! Glad you're liking the Modern D. I'm still enjoying it since the hipe stopped. It's a very good virtual instrument for long-term use.

For me, I'd love to be able to repeat notes rapidly, so I'd take the Yamaha P-525.

The Modern D is still my favorite virtual piano. However, I wouldn't have minded using the on board Nord pianos for this comparison, but unfortunately because the Nord doesn't interpret triple sensor midi in messages, using it for a single key repetition example wouldn't be ideal.

Something else I like about the P525 is that it sends a note off message earlier in the key return compared to the Numa. Since the Nord won't let you repeat a note via incoming midi until it receives a note off message, it makes controlling the Nord with the P525 a bit more enjoyable because I don't have to raise the key as high before I can repeat the note.

God Bless,
David

jenpal

As always, I enjoyed watching your videos, David B. I’ve probably watched this almost 10 times already, despite it being a long video, while having coffee or breakfast. 😉

I learnt about this Numa in this forum and thought that its GT action is better than the Grand Touch of Yamaha. I have been interested in owning one for a while (assuming I could convince my wife), except that this Numa keyboard is too heavy for me to carry, which is my only hesitation. However, after watching this video, I started to change my perspective, favouring the Yamaha P series again, awaiting your personal review on the Numa SL MK2. I am hoping, but not expecting, that you will include the SL88 MK2 with TP110 action in your review (which is 4 kg lighter than my Yamaha P255).

Talking about the single key repetition, I’ve just tested my old Yamaha CLP480 with NW action (I believe it has 3 sensors without simulated escapement), and I observed that it seems to have similar, if not the same, capability as the P525 (in your demonstration), giving me an appreciation for my old CLP480. 🙂

David B

jenpal I’ve probably watched this almost 10 times already, despite it being a long video,

Yeah, I really wanted to make it a shorter video. 17 min is a bit too long. That's why I was talking so fast at the beginning hoping I could cram everything in.

jenpal However, after watching this video, I started to change my perspective, favouring the Yamaha P series again

Not everyone is going to have the same problem as me playing the TP400 even though it is objectively harder to repeat notes. You might not find it a challenge at all. I tried to open a dialogue with Studiologic about my experience and I never heard back from them. They were willing to let me try an older firmware version (pre 2.4) to experiment with because I couldn't remember how it behaved, but it had the same characteristic with repeating notes as the current firmware version. I'm hoping they will address the "issue."

jenpal I am hoping, but not expecting, that you will include the SL88 MK2 with TP110 action in your review (which is 4 kg lighter than my Yamaha P255).

My son - that lives with me - has a Numa X piano with the TP110 action. A couple things about it.

Not graded hammer. All keys weigh the same.
It's built on a plastic frame and has plastic to plastic contact points between the keys and frame. It can get noisy/clicky once the lube starts to wear off on those contact points. I took my son's apart and re-lubed some keys, but it can be a perennial issue if you play the keyboard regularly. The TP400 has a metal frame with rubber/silicone covering the areas that can contact the keys so you never get that clicking noise even when the lube gets displaced.
The Numa X Piano with the TP110 action uses the same firmware/software as the TP400GT model and displays the same characteristic regarding repeated notes. However, the key dip and distance the keys need to travel to repeat notes is less on the TP100 - similar to the black keys on the TP400 - and therefore it's actually easier (for me) to repeat notes on the TP110 compared to the TP400.

I wouldn't mind the TP110 on a smaller keyboard that wasn't my primary - like the spring action on my Nord - but I wouldn't want to use it as my primary day to day piano. It would probably be a good option if you just want something to noodle around on or if you wanted something for traveling/gigging. I could see where it would be useful in those situations. I have to travel this summer for several weeks and I'm looking forward to taking my Nord Compact with me because it's so light.

God Bless,
David

jenpal

Thank you so much for your response, David B. 😊

Yes, I noticed that you were talking fast in the beginning, which feels like you sped up the video recording a little bit.

Although I don’t use many repeating notes, it seems better to be able to re-trigger the note from halfway up. My Yamaha P255 only has 2 key sensors, which tend to lose some notes when I compare my playing against the CLP480 with 3 sensors.

I probably wouldn’t mind if it is not graded in favour of having a lightweight keyboard for traveling/carrying. However, I still prefer to have a relatively nice feel (though this is subjective) with lighter hammer action.

It is only on some occasions that I have the opportunity to play outside for our church activities, but I always find it difficult carrying the P255 (even though it only weighs 17.3 kgs plus the bag weight). Having a lighter 88-key keyboard could probably make a significant difference for me.

The newer technology and features of Numa SL MK2 also look impressive to me, which could be perfect for my new keys rig that I recently started exploring/learning.

I haven’t found any stocks available yet in our local stores here in Sydney to try, and I hope the prices won’t go up if ever I decide to buy in the near future due to the current global trading issues.

Good luck in your upcoming travel, David. It would be interesting to know your travel experience with the Nord. I can see that there are a lot of knobs/buttons sticking up, which could be a concern unlike with the Yamaha P series.

God bless!

David B

jenpal Yes, I noticed that you were talking fast in the beginning, which feels like you sped up the video recording a little bit.

Ha ha, I almost redid that first part because I actually thought people might feel like I sped up the video. However, that was just me talking fast. 😀

jenpal The newer technology and features of Numa SL MK2 also look impressive to me, which could be perfect for my new keys rig that I recently started exploring/learning.

It would be great for that. Sweetwater is expecting inventory sometime in June. Hopefully I'll have one by August. 😎

God Bless,
David

HZPiano

David B

At the start of your narrative, I immediately found your tempo of speech rather uncharacteristic 🙂. It almost put me off watching, but it soon became better.

I don't mind the 17 minutes length, as long as it's a useful 17 minutes that is just fine.

Three weeks ago I played TP400/W in a GEWA-built house brand console piano. I observed several of the behaviors you describe in the video and those -- together with the short keydip of the black keys which felt rather awkward to me -- put me off ordering it. I was hoping for a really nice MIDI controller in furniture form. The action wasn't all bad, don't get me wrong, but it didn't give me the wow/hype feeling it gets in the forums. To me, it certainly doesn't surpass the VPC1, except for the welcome lower touch weight.

That Saturday (at the Steinway Center for the Benelux) I had the whole of the large digital room for myself so I spent 3+ hours there (playing as well as chatting with the manager about pianos, life and everything).

I had tried the P525 and CLP-745 before, but they never lasted more than a minute. This time I fired up a P525 and sat at it for a few minutes, thinking hmmmm maybe at a next occasion I'd like to spend some more time trying it out more seriously (I'd like to test the CLP-845 with the same Grand Touch-S).

I tried the HP704 (PHA-50) once again. Decent build quality which I really appreciate, not bad, but also somewhat sluggish/muddy.

I tried the LX6 (Grand Hybrid); certainly appreciate the longer pivot length and white/black key staggering, for sure more pleasant than PHA-50, but lacking a real wow feeling.

The action that I spontaneously spent the most time at was GFIII in a CA701. That one is really expressive, follows my intentions, it is a joy to play as far as digital actions go that are not the NV10S ☺️. I keep disliking the sort-of rubberized texture on the blacks, I really don't understand that. It makes pivoting your hand on a black key to shift fingering unnecessarily cumbersome.

Thanks for the nice and informative comparison video, which I can relate to given my recent tryout of several digitals. Is what I mean to say 😁.

Cheers!

CyberGene

I have not been playing anything besides my N1X for quite a lot but a few days ago I had a brief visit to the Kawai shop in town. I turned on some of the CA-pianos, can’t remember the name but was some of the current generation, with the wooden GF action, I can ask the owner which one it was. Well, such an underwhelming experience 😕 There was not a single thing I liked about either the action or the sound. Maybe I’m too used to the N1X after all.

HZPiano

CyberGene

If it happened to have been one of the Grand Feel Compact CAs you played, then yes, unfortunately that one really misses the boat.

Cheers!

PS I'd also like an N1X more than GFIII of course, and an NV10S even quite a bit more. 😋

johanibraaten

David B Great video David, thank you!

HZPiano The action that I spontaneously spent the most time at was GFIII in a CA701. That one is really expressive

I agree. I think the GF3 action feels wonderful and to me it's on par with the Casio GP-action for being the best feeling DP actions (not comparing with the Avantgrand and Novus instruments). I haven't tried the TP400/W though. If I was in the market for a conventional console piano I think the CA701 would be my first choice, It just seems like a great value package as a whole (however the lack of USB audio would probably make me wait for the next generation).

David B

CyberGene I had a brief visit to the Kawai shop in town. I turned on some of the CA-pianos, can’t remember the name but was some of the current generation, with the wooden GF action, I can ask the owner which one it was. Well, such an underwhelming experience

My Nord has a Kawai SK7 sample that sounds really nice. I think it sounds better than the SK5 in the MP11se I used to own. It seems like the samples in the Kawai digitals I've owned were too sanitized. The Nord samples sound more realistic to my ears.

God Bless,
David

Pete14

CyberGene I turned on some of the CA-pianos, can’t remember the name but was some of the current generation, with the wooden GF action, I can ask the owner which one it was. Well, such an underwhelming experience 😕 There was not a single thing I liked about either the action or the sound. Maybe I’m too used to the N1X after all…

Or maybe the N1X is a masterpiece….🤔

HZPiano

@David B

Hi David,

I'm experiencing mild G.A.S. tickles towards the GrandTouch-s since the last time I briefly touched it -- now some six weeks ago.

Neither the CLP-range nor the P-525 do send a variable Note Off velocity; just the typical fixed value of 64.

Have you noticed any differences using the P-525 with Modern U and D now that you no longer have the Note Off velocity sent?

I reached out to @VILabs using their contact form to inquire about this, but am quite curious what your actual experiences with this matter are.

Cheers and thanks!

David B

HZPiano Have you noticed any differences using the P-525 with Modern U and D now that you no longer have the Note Off velocity sent?

Hi.

Honestly, I don't even know how the note off variable velocity works with virtual pianos. I can hear the difference in release samples in virtual pianos, but I don't know how the variable note off works with those if at all. From what I can tell - and I could be wrong - whatever the variable note off function does is so subtle that I can't tell the difference between having and not having it. However, maybe someday I'll understand better how it works and will be able to appreciate (or even detect) its benefit.

God bless,
David

HZPiano

David B

Thanks 🙂.

Your answer is as I somewhat expected, because -- same here.

Maybe if I find a moment for it I will filter out the note off velocity from my Roland and replace it with the fixed 64 before it reaches Modern U. And then play and see if I notice anything significant that has changed.

If @VILabs comes back with anything worth mentioning I'll share it.

Cheers!

HZPiano

Hello,

Thanks to @VILabs for a swift answer:

"Hi,

Thank you for reaching us,

I confirm you that our pianos do not use note off velocity,

Please let me know if you have any further questions.

Best regards,

VI Labs, LLC Support team"

So well, that is one hurdle less that had spooked me to look further into these Yamahas 🙂. I need to hit the bus and train again for some fresh test-playing.

Cheers!