Actions: Roland PHA-4 Standard vs. Kawai RHIII

HZPiano

Hello,

I'm quite familiar with PHA-4 Standard and its MIDI behavior in my Roland FP-10, in use daily as my piano MIDI controller. Absolutely happy with it, particularly at this price point.

Yet, I am quite curious if Kawai's RHIII, as found in e.g. the MP7SE, CN29, and CN39, would give me an improvement in touch, nuance, control and provide at least as good a MIDI output as my FP-10 does (which is rather well done if not to say excellent).

I was about to visit a store or two to physically try the Kawai RHIIIs out, however, newly instated semi-lockdown measures in my country have made that difficult for some unknown time to come.

So I'd be very interested to learn more on how these two actions compare in the hands of people with experience with them for actual piano playing.

My 'use case' is my study/home piano, with a broad musical curiosity and interest which currently goes toward classical, minimal/atmospheric, and jazz. Thus far I solely play virtual (VI Labs Modern U), but in case of an engine such as in the MP7SE I could see myself using internal sounds as well, to get some variation and to have fun with.

Thank you!

Cheers and happy days,

Drew-r

HZPiano

While i do not have/know precisely what you’ve asked for, i share in hopes it helps nonetheless.

My HP508 has PHA—4 ‘concert’ action while MP7 has RH2. Directly comparing the two, i have consistently felt the former stiff but sturdy - difficult for me to play p/pp with a typical (middling) key-touch “weight” setting but i have not had a lick of the familiar “intermittent sounds due to easily-worn rubber contacts” - where the RHII i (originally) thought of the action as silky smooth and easy for me to play both p/pp & F and while the latter is still the case i now think of the feel as bouncy - because it is - and this is one among the two main reasons i’d like to sell the MP7.

As you (fellow ‘Clackers to include you HZPiano 🙂) may not be too surprised to hear/see, my current skill level of applying fingers to keys to produce suitable dynamics is on the heavy-handed side. On the one hand, this may explain to me why i find the logic of adjusting key-touch to be opposite of what it seems; on the 508 in particular i need to adjust it to be “heavier” which makes it easier for me to effect p/pp. On the other hand, it then is harder to produce F …. but i continue to strive for improvement all the while. While i do not have this dilemma on the MP7, to my own surprise i’ve grown to dislike the bounciness to the extent that i overall prefer the 508…. if and when i get rid of the MP7, i may likely replace it with a much less expensive board said to have an action some call heavy, others call sluggish, some call stiff while others call “too light”.

David B

HZPiano Is there a way to turn the Local Control off on the FP10 when using a VST so that the internal sound engine on the FP10 is disabled? I can't find that option on in the FP10 manuals online?

I have a Yamaha P45 and there is no way to turn the local control off. I have not been able to use it with VST's and I'm thinking about the FP10 if I can find one here in the States.

God Bless,
David

Del Vento

I don't know anything about the Roland, but I can provide my impressions on the Kawai.

In the past, I owned a ES-X (see the brochure) which was probably the first and in any case the predecessor of the ES line whose current model, IIRC is the ES-8 and has the RH3 action. The ES-X had Advanced Hammer Action II and I liked it. When ready to upgrade, I tried the current ES-model (I think it was an ES-7, whose brochure says it had the RH2 action). I did not like it and ended up getting an (used) Concert Artist series the CA750 which had the AWA II action with wooden keysticks (predecessor of the current GF3) which I loved and kept until I upgraded to my current Yamaha NU1 (which is now for sale: I probably should have picked "the restless piano owner" as nickname 🤣 but I digress) -- I am providing this info as context to say that I like the Kawai brand in general, but I am not biased favorably or against it like a fanboy or a hater.

IIRC, I also once tried an ES-8 in a store, side-by-side with and ES-100 (without intention to buy, in that occasion). For as much as I can remember I found that in both this visit and the one mentioned above, the RH2 and RH3 actions were exceptionally bouncing and distracting and I did not like that at all. In fact, I thought the ES-100 had a better action, contrary to all the marketing and reviews, and that I'd have bought that if I needed to buy one. Well, a few reviews had pointed out some excessive bounciness of the RH3, and I found myself particularly sensitive to the problem (or both the ES-7 and ES-8 specimens I tried were particularly bad in that regard).

So how this apply to you?

Think if you had ever played on a very bouncy action and if you liked it, or at least tolerated it
If you have not tried any, attempt to find a place to do that in person before purchasing (even if it's not the exact thing you're going to buy, that action is inside various models and a friend or store or church might have one)
If that is not possible either, definitely buy from a store with a no-reason no-cost returns (Thomann?). Or at least low-cost returns at a level that you are fine "wasting your money for noting" should you end up disliking that action as I did.
Or if that is not possible and given you like your current keys, just delay the upgrade to another time.

HZPiano

Hello,

Del Vento Thanks for your response and sound remarks.

An overly bouncy action would indeed annoy me.

It is such a bummer that my nice and fun little store trips (which are not nearby) have been impeded once again. Let's just hope that is short-lived.

Anyway.

Cheers and a happy remainder of this Sunday,

DPPianoPhil

Del Vento

I think the most current DP in that line from Kawai is the ES920, which also has the RH3 action, with improved key switches, according to the Kawaii brochure. Its little brother, the ES520, has something called Responsive Compact Hammer II (RCHII).

To be clear, I have no experience whatsoever with any DP action, other than my weightless Yamaha keyboard! 😆

Picotin

Del Vento the RH2 and RH3 actions were exceptionally bouncing and distracting and I did not like that at all.

As an ES8 owner, I've also found RH3 a bit bouncing. That did not bother me much in the past, but I guess it's now becoming more noticeable.

… or maybe, I'm just looking for an excuse to upgrade…

HZPiano

Hello,

Drew-r Seems you'll be buying another Roland then 😉.

As for the quieter dynamics, try to be more relaxed in your playing, relieving some of that heavy-handedness.

Cheers and happy pounding (or eh, not!)

Drew-r

David B

I notice the FP10 owner’s manual suggests reading the reference manual for uses - bluetooth, usb to host, and apps - that may involve midi. I read the reference manual. It implies that if either bluetooth is enabled or usb-to-host port is connected to a computer, the midi operation is automatic - no menu settings, no mention about Local Control. The troubleshooting section has a brief suggestion that if you hear double sounds “ it may be because you are attached to a DAW or Sequencer” and advises tweaking the DAW/Sequencer to resolve by changing the “soft thru”parameter.

HZPiano

Hello,

David B Yes, David, the FP-10 does have a local control on/off setting. It involves holding the 'piano/function' button and pressing one of the high keys simultaneously, if I remember correctly. EDIT: IT TURNS OUT IT PROBABLY DOESN'T.

I just use the volume control at its lowest setting (essentially off) however, so that nothing from the internal engine comes from the speakers.

A tip: However nice and good value for money the FP-10 is, if you appreciate more complete pedaling provisions, perhaps consider the FP-30(X) instead.

Cheers and all the best,

vagfilm

David B Is there a way to turn the Local Control off on the FP10 when using a VST so that the internal sound engine on the FP10 is disabled?

In a piano that does not support audio-in (AFAIR), switching local control is not important: as HZ reported, you just minimize the volume. The FP30x is a much better alternative for simple setup because it has built-in audio interface.

David B

HZPiano Yes, David, the FP-10 does have a local control on/off setting. It involves holding the 'piano' button and pressing one of the high keys simultaneously, if I remember correctly.

I can't find that function described in any of the online manuals.

It looks like the FP10 is not available in the US (maybe I could find a used one), so the FP30 might be the next logical step.

God Bless,
David

HZPiano

David B I was just double-checking it and I can't find it either, and in the MIDI implementation chart it is listed as 'not recognized'.

So maybe it doesn't have a local control switch after all! Glad the volume at zero works just as well 🙂.

Cheers and happy hunting down your new Roland,

PS Would that be for church use? You aren't planning to part with your N1X are you?

QuasiUnaFantasia

From my perspective as an FP-30 owner, I 1) don't think the speakers are really all that good (so I run sound through an external amplifier and spearate speakers), and 2) am not aware that local control can be set off.

HZPiano

Hello,

@David B and @QuasiUnaFantasia, I just checked and the FP-30X indeed does have local control on/off (see pages 2 and 12 of the English language manual), which involves the function button together with a piano key.

(@QuasiUnaFantasia I am aware that you were referring to the non-X FP-30).

Hope this helps,

Cheers and enjoy your Sunday (for me, it is already almost history by now),

David B

Yeah, looks like the FP-30X has it now (local control on/off). I think I might try to sell my P45 and replace it with an FP-30X for use in my office at church.

I can't figure out how to run VST's on my P45 (no local control function) and I'd like to have that option when I'm working at the church. 😀

God Bless,
David

ClothEaredNincompoop

An opinion from Stu Harrison at 17:11: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlkWEe1_09w&t=1032s

HZPiano

ClothEaredNincompoop 😀 Haha!! Funnily enough, I watched that very video over breakfast this morning and that got me (once again) thinking/wondering about RHIII.

Cheers and happy playing,

HZPiano

MHirsch

Hello,

Thank you for a short long story that is rather useful 😀.

On PHA-4 I find it very comfortable to intentionally pick and play the quieter nuances. Every now and then I 'meet' acoustic upright pianos, and usually find that the PHA-4 is in comparison with those probably even too easy in that respect. Perhaps/probably grand piano actions are easier to accurately intend dynamics on.

PHA-4 is generally considered on the heavier side, which it is, but given proper volume settings and playing at the front ends of the keys where possible, it plays comfortably and responsively. Due to the relatively short pivot, it quickly becomes less pleasant where I need to play further back on the keys. I would like improvement there.

So now/so far I have three main clues on Kawai's RHIII:

Stu Harrison rates it between PHA-4 and PHA-50, closer to the latter, for pianistic accuracy (see ClothEaredNincompoop );
From our discussion here: it is a bouncy action;
And: unpleasant to play the lower dynamics on.

Hmmm. Interesting.

Cheers and the happiest playing,

David B

vagfilm The FP30x is a much better alternative for simple setup because it has built-in audio interface.

I placed an order for a Roland FP30X from Musician's Friend. I got a 15% discount. I paid $679 ($733 with tax).

Now I have to put my P45 on Craig's list. I think I'm going to ask $400 for it. They are $550 new before tax.

Hopefully, I'll have my VSL Bösendorfer Imperial up and running at the church soon.

God Bless,
David

MHirsch

Our friends own a CN29.

I can't compare it to a Roland, but could to a CA79, if you're interested.

HZPiano

MHirsch Thanks for asking, and yes impressions on those two instruments would for sure be interesting.

Cheers and happy playing,

MHirsch

HZPiano
Well, long story short: CN29 is trying to push your fingers back if almost depressed, like a short spring. It's tricky to play ppp on CN29, you have to apply more force than actually would be needed, resulting in a louder sound.

CA79 feels more closer to "the real thing".

Picotin

DPPianoPhil Kawai is the ES920, which also has the RH3 action, with improved key switches, according to the Kawaii brochure.

I've not yet tried the latest ES920 but I own the ES8 since few years.

I do hope the switches were improved because I bumped into two defective ES8 units with annoying behavior. Even after cleaning the contacts by myself a couple of years back, unfortunately the issue comes back. I guess I will replace the rubber strips next time.