Ivory III American Concert D Review and Test

i can safely say that i enjoy the ACD more then the modern d
it sounds very warm and dreamy, there's a certain warmth in it (i think the first and second harmonics are a bit louder and that's what gives this piano such great sound) that touches my bones

it's not like i think the MD is bad, not at all it's a great instrument and it's better in some areas
but when it comes to sound, i can't help the fact that i always enjoy older pianos more

but i'm still waiting, the market is getting bigger and bigger by day so maybe there will be better things in the near future, but if had to choose between the two (it's very difficult) i'd go with the ivory i think
cause the noise level doesn't bother me (i'm not very sensitive to background noise unless it's too much - but i'm completely fine with something like NOIRE)
and i really don't mind the resonances being sampled or modeled (as long as i get resonances - i'm looking at you vsl)
the only problem i have with the ACD (or any ivory piano in general) is the way they handle release samples, it's fake and unrealistic
if RS was ok with the ivory i wouldn't hesitate to get it, but now i'm quite confused
cause i like the feature set of the modern d better but also prefer the sound of the ivory acd
damn it 🙂

I don't hear something I would label a "hiss", but I do hear some scratching sounds that are clearly not sounds from a piano; they sound like some sort of amplified noise. I got the feeling they appeared at the end of proper piano sounds, so maybe related to release samples.

I heard some noise the third time David played scales when I put my ear against my phone really closely. But I have never paid attention to this even from the early Ivory 1. I must be bewitched by music itself. LOL.

David Lai

Just listened.

I'm not noticing hiss per se, but all kinds of aspects to the sound that can be perceived and/or labeled as "hiss".

Apart from the first two scales and your bit of Chopin, I found everything else I heard very unpleasant with all kinds of things "around" the core sound that I don't like at all.

Just an IMHO 😉

Cheers,

HZ

David Lai I clearly hear the hiss through headphones. You're not at all wrong. Your recording isn't a pathological case, either. It's definitely something that would come up in use.

I'm puzzled as to why it's so bad. Presumably, as we've both speculated, the additional mic samples were recorded during the same session as what made it into the original Ivory II ACD. What's different about the additional perspectives? Interestingly, the further away the mics, the worse the hiss.

It's almost like they recorded the additional mics at reduced volume as part of a planned overall mix for the original Ivory II ACD (rather than as separate, mixable perspectives), then scrapped that idea for the final release (as the default perspective of Ivory III ACD is identical to how my copy of Ivory II ACD sounds). And now they've resurrected those original recordings but have had to boost the amplitude to make them usable as separate perspectives.

Obviously, this is pure speculation. I've got basically nothing to base any of this on. It's just throwing something at the wall to try to explain what I'm hearing.

Argyris Obviously, this is pure speculation. I've got basically nothing to base any of this on. It's just throwing something at the wall to try to explain what I'm hearing.

Yes indeed. However from what I just heard, the speculation is plausible (to my mind).

Cheers!

HZ

HZPiano

cine-paradiso-modernd-c414room.mp3

David Lai

So now I listened through your review.

Some have already expressed a preference for the tone of the older piano as sampled by Ivory. I do agree! It is rather lovely. But: only on that Side A position.

As for everything else around the instrument: it definitely is not for me.

Cheers and thanks for all your passionate work,

HZ

David Lai I posted the review to VI Control as well, and someone was questioning if I was biased toward the Modern D. Indeed, the tests that I was doing may have given the upper hand to it, but I certainly wasn't doing this on purpose. That said, what's more challenging them was that they didn't hear the hiss.

So I isolated the microphones and did a short recording. The first half, I play a chromatic scale in the 4 different mic positions. Then I did a midi rendering of the 3 new mic positions playing the same chromatic scale, pedal up and pedal down, followed by an excerpt from a Chopin prelude.

You tell me if you can hear it, but I hear the hiss both on my headphones and monitors. Hope this will help answer my questions. I'm not giving any bias to any libraries in question.

Hi David,

I think there are some imperfections, but can you please also have a similar close look at the upper octaves in the Modern D? Quoting myself recently from another thread:

_sem_ I'd like to ask if you guys also notice a certain attack noise (?hiss) in some keys in the upper octaves, for instance E5, D6? Not the same in all mics (been using Close / Player / Room)…

Not sure if I should name it hiss or some sort of (damped) resonance?

_sem_ Hi, I do notice a rather characteristic ringing on D6, but that's the sound of the instrument itself, not sample imperfection. However, I didn't notice hiss build-up in the other notes.

That said, though, there's a slight tick on B-flat on the player mic as well. But I'm not sure if it's a part of every mic. Also, this tick needs some investigation to reproduce it -- hitting the exact velocity to hit that sample, which is hard to do by hand.

I'll see what I can do to consistently reproduce what I hear, and then I'll make a recording.

HZPiano Thanks for listening, HZ. Yes, side A is the original position on the Ivory II version of the same instrument. If you already have it, then don't update to Ivory III.

I'd be curious to see if Synthogy would respond to my findings, LOL.

Argyris Yes, and based on what was said above about recording more things and holding it off for release in another version, this seem like a good explanation.

That said, I think it's rather a shady way to practice business.

"This is our brand new product (which is leftovers going through a heater / microwave)."

Yes it does sound like an authentic piano thing to me, but I thought such things were normal for my poor old upright, not a concert grand 🙂 Yes it is not something I'd notice every time, but rather in specific pieces (eg a staccato note gets a bit longer/stronger than anticipated and with a hiss). It seemed to be present in different mics, though in different ways.

_sem_ Yes it does sound like an authentic piano thing to me, but I thought such things were normal for my poor old upright, not a concert grand

Well, I heard similar ring on my professor's American D from 2019, and his was on an E-flat.

Regarding what you described, so it's in the release phases. OK, I'll try to do shorter notes and listen, and if the situation is concerning, I'll make a recording. I'm sure I can find what's wrong if I try and give time to investigate.

_sem_ Hi!

So I believe this is what happened on Modern D. A couple of the mic positions received noise reduction during the testing process (I believe it's the player and room, or was it the side and room?). But the rest didn't receive noise reduction. I also isolated the specific B-flat 5 (attached with a file below), and the tick is present. However, on closer inspection I believe it's the instrument, not sampling technicalities, as I hear it in the initial attacks of all 5 mics. But this tick is especially heard in the player position.

Please let me know if what I'm noticing is what you're noticing as well. Of course, during normal playing, the noise is hard to hear. But if you use a daw and port the audio and isolate the moment when the note decays, you do hear the hiss when the amplitude is +40 DB (I don't recommend you do this, it'll blow out your ears and equipment). And it is only in those levels, do I sense a difference in hiss levels between mic positions.

Have a listen. Original 24 bit FLAC.

b-flat.flac

Hi David,

I think we're not talking about the same thing. What I have in mind is high-pitched hiss (buzz) likely inherent in the piano samples at higher strike intensities, sounds a bit different with different mics. It may have to do something with the dampers, because it changes a lot at the highest notes (that don't have them). It seems to be present with several notes, I spot it the most with E5, A4. Not present when playing quietly.

_sem_ I see. I just played loud notes on E5 and A4, and to me they sound normal, like how the instrument should sound. So sorry, I didn't notice any problems. The damper ringing is something the instrument has, and they preserved these noises.

i think we're lucky that we have a chance to choose between such amazing virtual pianos.
it's not like one of them is extremely better or worse then the other, most of them are great especially these two american steinways are quite similar both tone and feature wise (and giving the price range, they're direct competitors)
i'll be glad to have either of them as my everyday piano

but i'm going to wait, there probably will be a couple of other releases before the xmas i don't wanna miss any of them before making a decision.

For those interested, some more Ivory III ACD performances here. Presenting Gershwin's Prelude No. 2 in a combined ambient + mid/side, as well as side B microphone positions. Enjoy the hissy samples! 🙂

gershwin-prelude-2-ivory-ambient-combined.flac

gershwin-prelude-2-ivory-side-b.flac

FWIW, the hiss doesn't seem all that bad here in the ambient perspective.

In general, these examples remind me that ACD has always been a gorgeous sounding library, at least for slower, softer, more lyrical material. It falls off a bit once the pace picks up, especially anywhere release samples become more apparent, but it's still pleasant to listen to.

I'd be interested in a direct comparison between the Ivory II ACD and the Side B perspective in the Ivory III version, since the latter is, if I understand correctly, quite similar to the older version's sole perspective. Such a comparison should show the effects of the remastering and new engine on the same base samples.