My DP Project

Drew-r

Main Goal: setup to use DP over USB to Ipad with an on-line lesson site, likely PianoMarvel to start/try; ideally prefer DP to support USB for both MIDI to PM and return (digital) audio to sound through the DP’s internal speakers / external monitors.

Step 1, completed today as depicted but the clarity may not be evident due to PC’s photo compression. You are looking at the old HP508 ( USB midi only) , with a brand new IPad Pro 11 docked to an HDMI monitor intended to allow me to see piano music. I have a vision impairment requiring glasses for reading but i have recently failed a second time to get glasses with focal length adjusted for seeing “reading” while sitting at piano. I thought this would be simple math for my optometrist to figure out but for the second time in 4 years, their shop made me a new set of glasses that don’t work 🙁

I am estimating several more steps to progress from 1 to the intended goal. Somewhere along this line i hope to acquire a newer DP design , likely a Yamaha, that supports USB audio. For now, next step is to get on-line using the first trial month of PM , then fiddle with getting the new IPad setup with a new apple iD and then figure out how to arrange a pre-paid card to use for in-app purchasing ..... i’m sure this is old hat for many of you but it is not for me with the way i have lived a non-app-happy life the past 10-years 🥴

PS: i tried 5 times to post the photo but PC errored out every time

Drew-r

Strange, every time the forum editor finds the photo i want to link, a little red box appears “error” along with the text message “ press or paste to upload” , but on my ipad, i see nothing to press or paste 🤔

Drew-r

arc

Drew-r

Hi! I believe you are trying to address quite different requirements with your setup.

Connecting the DP to the iPad. If your goal is to use software such as PianoMarvel you do not need USB MIDI. The iPad supports Bluetooth MIDI and this is easier to use than a cabled connection. The latency introduced by Bluetooth MIDI is not relevant for this use case.

External audio generation. Are you planning to use a VST to generate the sound, instead of using the DP's internal sounds? If yes, then you need a computer since the piano VSTs available on the iPad are rudimentary compared to the computer-based ones. If you plan to use synth sounds, then the iPad can be used. In this case, a cabled USB MIDI connection should be considered.

USB Audio. Not clear what is the use case here. You do not need USB Audio to play the internal audio of the DP with external speakers. If you are using a computer-based VST and the computer is connected to the external speakers, then you also do not need USB Audio. The scenarios where USB Audio are relevant is when you want to use the internal DP sounds in a computer (e.g. to digitally process the audio in a VST), or when you want to playback digital audio generated by an external device using the DP speakers.

Del Vento

Drew-r Main Goal: setup to use DP over USB to Ipad with an on-line lesson site, likely PianoMarvel to start/try; ideally prefer DP to support USB for both MIDI to PM and return (digital) audio to sound through the DP’s internal speakers / external monitors.

That should be super easy.

The tablet should support MIDI-over USB out of the box (or throw it out of the windows and get a Samsung -- however piano marvel is not supported yet in Android, but it is on Linux). The piano may or may not support it, but it certainly has MIDI. In the latter case, just buy

(I used this very same adapter before having the NU1 and worked flawlessy)
I am not sure why do you want to have that sophisticated audio setup. It's absolutely unnecessary. Piano Marvel just works fine spitting its own "crap" sound from the tablet/computer speakers, and you hear your lovely piano tone from the piano speakers. If you really want, you can use an audio cable from the tablet/computer headphone jack to the piano line-in (if it has one). But it's unnecessary. Worse, it makes the "set ready go" voice really loud and annoying. In fact, I could do that and I did it for a little while, but I now use computer speaker to avoid being annoyed
Done, forget everything else, including the "need" to buy another piano (however get it if you want to, but as something fun, not a chore, ok?)

Ah payment…. I am very wary of online purchases, so I never use my bank credit card. I buy gift cards (either generic, or branded, e.g. there are ones for Google Play Store and I think I've seen ones for Apple too). Get one of those and no worries about "doing it right", your liability is limited, and at least for Android it's very easy to set up!

Ah, optometrist… Measure the distance of the music score from your eyes and tell them. If they still get it wrong, find another doctor! Don't wait years to go: the visit needs to happen each year and even more frequently if you have problems as it sounds you do. Ask me how I know it…. (hint for non USA readers: because I've suffered great pain for not doing it)

Drew-r PS: i tried 5 times to post the photo but PC errored out every time

@CyberGene I encountered this problem when using the image "attachment" icon on the right (even though the image was fine and the URL was correct). @Drew-r note that such right icon is for attaching images from the web, whereas the one on the left it is for images from your computer. The left-option always worked well (ok, now it's time to get into politics 🤣)

arc The latency introduced by Bluetooth MIDI is not relevant for this use case.

I recommend against it. Not sure about the OP hardware, but with mine the latency IS relevant and very annoying.

CyberGene

Test uploading picture from iPhone

I think on an iOS device you have to first press the picture button:

And then select the picture to upload. Is this what you’re doing? Because copy/pasting doesn’t work.

That’s how I uploaded the picture with the synths.

Drew-r

CyberGene

CG, when i click the image icon as you showed, 3 options appear: Browse, Take Photo and Photo Library. If i select “browse” the Files view if my ipad appears and i double tap the photo to use. A very small message appears “downloading” with a spinning clock-like graphic….eventually the little red ‘error’ box blinks fir a second or two then i see the “press or paste to upload” …. its not i who wants to press or paste 🙂

After this failed numerous times, i tried using the Photo Library and thus eventually worked ….. but i seem to recall the “browse” option worked so easily when PC was 3 days old ….?🤔

As to the midi over midi versus usb versus digital audio versus analog versus you must this versus you must that circle jerk, most of what i already stated i learned from PW after getting raked over the coals several times ….. enough to think this is a good tech topic to be explored / explained further PS: along with updated wiring diagrams like Mac used to post on PW !😀- because what Arc has explained here is counter to what i thought i knew from PW.

Delvento, the two of us have several things in common 🙂 ….. unfortunately i am headed towards a place i previously avoided with a passion - the circle jerk known as ApplePatWalletIn-App purchasing made easy 😉🎃👻

Im late for an appointment …… stat tuned folks.

Drew-r

arc Connecting the DP to the iPad. If your goal is to use software such as PianoMarvel

Using PM is the main goal, for now, but there is a larger picture beyond that, if …….

For instance, if i accomplish main goal here, this will lead to other goals, such as recording the A&V of my piano performances. A member in PW once posted in a Yamaha thread ( i think it was for CLPs and or YAGs) that they were able to record sync’d A&V of their performance, nearly plug and play between Yami DP and Iphone, over USB, and CyberGene commented on this in that thread….. this seems pretty cool & easy, and will require i get a suitable Yami DP, which is among some other goals.

I am from the school of learning to walk before trying to run, and i realize this goes against the modern grain of the trend for people to throw a bunch of tech together and hope it works. Be that as it may, i already have 2 DPs that can send midi data from DP, over USB, to some place ….. like internet and Piano Marvel. For this reason, i want to use USB for midi and not use midi i/f for midi. For now i am okay with the return (analog) audio path from PM being facilitated by a cable connecting headphone out from ipad pro (via docking station) to line in on HP508.

I have absolutely no desire to do/try anything to do with VSTs.

If and when i get a new Yamaha DP supporting full midi & audio over USB, i will then no longer need to use the aforementioned analog-audio-via-headphone-out-to-line-in arrangement.

Drew-r

arc

Just resifting through previous replies and i missed something worth comment: bluetooth.

For now i have about as much interest to try anything bluetooth as i do for anything VST; none.

No offense Arc, i appreciate your helpful comments and gladly welcome more, but i am reserving bluetooth as perhaps something to try during a later project ….. 3 or 4 ….. but for now it is not on the project-1-map.

arc

Del Vento I recommend against it. Not sure about the OP hardware, but with mine the latency IS relevant and very annoying.

I get ~10ms communication latency with Bluetooth MIDI on my iPad. Support of Bluetooth MIDI in other devices varies a lot. This is adequate for Synthesia, Piano Marvel, and iPad VSTs. I do notice the total latency, but cannot notice a difference when I connect over Bluetooth or USB to the iPad.

MacMacMac Bluetooth was invented for exchanging contact information between Blackberry phones.

Bluetooth was good for 1999. But it's bad for 2021.

It was bad for many years. But it is improving and the latency and bitrate in the latest versions is already suitable for many applications. Even audio over BT is slowly improving…

CyberGene

Del Vento @CyberGene I encountered this problem when using the image "attachment" icon on the right (even though the image was fine and the URL was correct).

I've encountered the same problem once when trying to post multiple pictures in the Cybrid thread (and it stopped working and I had to abandon everything). I had to debug and open the browser console and noticed that Imgur was throwing an error saying that I have attached too many pictures in short time and I have to wait some time (was it 30 minutes?) before being able to post again... I'm wondering if that's a global limitation or is per IP. I mean, if someone attaches too many pictures in short time, does that block it for the entire forum? If that's the case, it would be very silly since that's one of the nicest features of the forum but I guess Imgur won't allow such an abuse for free...

If that's the case, I may seek for some other extension that would upload the pictures in the forum storage. I think there is one. It can be configured to resize the images and compress them. The new hosting doesn't offer too much SSD space though, compared to the previous one (10GB vs 1TB).

Drew-r

Del Vento That should be super easy.

The tablet should support MIDI-over USB out of the box

It does …. i already tested this on my (now older) ipad, using Garage band and the camera connector kit connecting to the to-host port on HP508, and then on MP7, and with each set to “local control off”, banging on each keyboard produced sound on the ipad. This was enough proof of concept for me that i then decided to purchase an ipad pro and docking station.

Del Vento I am not sure why do you want to have that sophisticated audio setup. It's absolutely unnecessary. Piano Marvel just works fine spitting its own "crap" sound fr

Agreed, but hey, ive been hanging out on PW for years watching many other members ask for help with their projects, several of which i was able to help by reciting steps i’d never tried myself before BUT ….. a person reads enough times of others doing something that it sort of gets burned in …. like accidentally memorizing a piano piece from having practiced=read the score over and over. At PW, for years, in the back of my mind i always imagined some day starting my own project….. and here i am. The past couple years ive used MacMacMac’s diagrams to help other members so many times that i could probably recite the various cabling alternatives in my sleep ….. but now its my turn and i’m sticking with alla that unnecessary setup 🙂

As for the on-line “payment” circle jerk, i’m not at all crazy about it but seems to be a required evil for anyone wanting to try on-line lesson methods. What would really help is some input from folks who do this “in app purchasing “ so routinely that they may not realize there is a grown, concerned adult out here looking for some simple advice on steps to take. For now i assume i can buy a pre-paid bank card, with enough credit/balance behind it, and of course approved by apple despite apple refusing to list/name which credit corps it likes ….. and no, i’m not gonna put my regular ATM debt card out there, nor my regular mastercard …. but im okay getting a new card with a couple hundred bucks of credit behind it, and go from there.

MacMacMac

Bluetooth was invented for exchanging contact information between Blackberry phones.

Bluetooth was good for 1999. But it's bad for 2021.

CyberGene

Drew-r If i select “browse” the Files view if my ipad appears and i double tap the photo to use. A very small message appears “downloading” with a spinning clock-like graphic….eventually the little red ‘error’ box blinks fir a second or two then i see the “press or paste to upload” …. its not i who wants to press or paste

Ahh, I see. I think this is because the photo in question is not actually stored on the iPad but is stored in the iCloud and it first gets downloaded before actually being posted. It's possible that the JavaScript that does this gets confused or it's an iOS bug. I actually think I've seen similar problems with other web applications and attaching files from the cloud that need to be downloaded first. Can you try first opening the Files application and choose a photo and download it by clicking it once, there should be a spinning circle that shows the progress. (If you click on it a second time then it's open). And then try to attach this already downloaded photo on the forum to see whether it works.

arc

Drew-r because what Arc has explained here is counter to what i thought i knew from PW.

What is different?

The BT MIDI part may be controversial, but BT MIDI works very well with Apple devices and has low latency. I wouldn't recommend BT MIDI with Android or Windows due to known issues and performance variations, but the OP mentioned he has an iPad Pro.

The USB Audio part is not controversial. We have three major use cases. (1) use the DP to play external digital audio (e.g. from a MIDI controlled external VST) through the DP speakers or headphones connection. This is the ideal setup when not using external speakers since it avoids potential ground-loops. (2) Use the DP internal audio with an external VST or device. This is ideal when we want to process the internal audio of the DP in an external VST (e.g. record, add reverb). (3) Using external speakers to reproduce the DP's internal sound. This does not require USB Audio but an analogue line-out connection; using USB Audio in this case has no value at all and would require an extra DAC to convert the digital into an analogue signal (unless you are using an AV receiver/amplifier able to decode USB Audio).

Drew-r

Okay, the “photo library” , option is working fine, i thought i used the “browse” option here, before, but maybe i am not remembering correctly. I’m happy to use what works for now 🙂 …. and i do not use icloud storage …… clarification, i do not willingly or knowingly use icloud storage but among the growing peeve list of circle-jerk things-apple requires that i do not like, the way it surreptitiously forces things to the cloud when i tried to explicitly tell it “no” over and over, is high on this mounting list. ☹️

“Circle Jerk” - more on this later but it is an expression i picked up during my third tour of Pittsburgh that began in 1993. It has various shades of meanings, but generally refers to a contrived procedure one must follow AND IF it is one you have not done many times before and you make a simple mistake along the way, without announcement you are sent down a winding path to somewhere else you did not want to go but when you realize it, you then must try to circle back to the spot where you unwittingly fell into a trap door. 😐

I bookmarked and screen-shot the above 2 diagrams authored originally by MacMacMac, i believe, and they help clarify the pictures involved with connections for DPs and midi and or audio and or USB and the many digressions introduced by well meaning members’ replies …. and lions and tigers and bears oh my.😂

If i ever find and figure out how to use apple’s version of ms-paint, i will make/post my own diagrams but this may or not be further down the list of steps for this DP-online-lessons project.

Del Vento

arc delvento I recommend against it. Not sure about the OP hardware, but with mine the latency IS relevant and very annoying.

I get ~10ms communication latency with Bluetooth MIDI on my iPad. Support of Bluetooth MIDI in other devices varies a lot.

Ok, that makes sense since I have Samsung.

In any case, MIDI over USB with Samsung and any digital piano that I tried (either natively so, or with the adapter I linked above) was a piece of cake. Do you know if the OP's piano support Bluetooth MIDI? Otherwise there's the question of the proper adapter for that…. I know people rave for CME Widi, but I have not tried it…. Perhaps an idea for another thread.

Del Vento

Drew-r I am from the school of learning to walk before trying to run, and i realize this goes against the modern grain of the trend for people to throw a bunch of tech together and hope it works. Be that as it may, i already have 2 DPs that can send midi data from DP, over USB, to some place ….. like internet and Piano Marvel.

So it sounds you are all set? Or not? The original

Drew-r Main Goal: setup to use DP over USB to Ipad with an on-line lesson site, likely PianoMarvel to start/try;

and subsequent:

Drew-r I am estimating several more steps to progress from 1 to the intended goal

Sounded like you were encountering problems?

MacMacMac

That's not exactly what is meant by "circle jerk". 🙂

Drew-r

MacMacMac That's not exactly what is meant by "circle jerk".

Do tell…… wait, maybe tell …. just remember this is, for now, a forum generally appropriate for all age groups 😉

It may be after all of these years i have adapted my own meaning that has strayed from the original, but ….. i got this from a fellow worker who invited me along with a few of his friends to a private hunting reserve up near Oil City …. you know, small bunch of guys doing and talking guys stuff …..maybe do not tell 🤐

Drew-r

Del Vento Sounded like you were encountering problems?

Its more a matter of expecting problems that may or may not occur …..i probably got this from working over 30 years in a tech-support role ….. “ hope for the best but plan for the worst”. I was taught that in the early 80’s when i got my first job in Cincinnati with a big-time company, taught by my boss who just happened to be a native Pittsburgher.

If i can figure out a way to safely and securely set up an Apple-pay configuration, i’ll be trying PM’s 30-day trial immediately after. Getting a new apple id for my new ipad is an expected circle jerk to do battle with, mainly because i want no apple-logical connections between this new device and my existing 4 apple devices despite the actual logical connection.

Del Vento

Drew-r For now i assume i can buy a pre-paid bank card, with enough credit/balance behind it

I do this all the time. Some companies really hate that and don't let me use it for them. Shame on them, and they lose this one customer. Amazon takes anything (I guess you could pay them with mud, if it's in large enough quantities 🤣)

For Apple, which I suspect they are picky. So rather than the pre-paid bank card, go with

www.amazon.com / dp / B08F3C99KN (remove the spaces, I had to do this shit because otherwise it does not work ☹️

Which I'm sure you can find at the grocery store if you so prefer. They must like their own thing, and you'll be done (I do the same with Android/Google)