Piano Marvel experience (review if you want, or the good, the bad and the ugly)

Del Vento

Ok, nudged by you guys in this discussion and by Sara65's discussion on PW I created an account and tried it daily for a week.

@oshogg I highly recommend pianomarvel - it has sight reading 'boot camps'.

Ok, so I was able to find them only after a week of searching. For others stuck in the same way, you have to go into the library, search boot camp as if it were the title of a book. Once you find "the book" you open and you click the "also available as a boot camp" button. I have not tried it yet. This experience just to say that the interface has many rough spots and it is not a polished experience (even though the interface looks neat and polished). Other examples:

The documentation of the bootcamp is in a random google doc which you have to randomly find (rather than the normal documentation of the website) and it clearly feels as a draft (e.g. the MIDI setup should not be part of that)
It is not clear what is the difference between the technique and method things are: they look the same stuff to me.
Some other things, e.g. "ear training" (which is very good and deserves its own category) is considered part of the technique
Ear training would be fantastic if the note stems would not give hints on the pitch ☹️
In either or both technique and method there are flashcards. If you use continuous scrolling (which you want to use because is good for everything else), the flashcards are absolutely awful. Every time a flashcard appears you have to go to the settings, change the scrolling to flip pages and go back to continuous scrolling for everything else (if you don't forget).
Some things in the levels of stuff that they present you appears too easy, some other too hard and I don't think that's me…
Before you register it does not really tell you anything about the cost, if there is a free trail (yes there is), what does it offer, etc

Ok, so the above is the bad and the ugly (you pick which is which).

The good is that I like it a lot for sightreading and even just reading. Really nice (and I haven't tried the bootcamps yet). How is it better than a book? Well, first because it really forces you to move on, whereas on a book one always tend to "stay" and repeat, which slows down learning. Then, you get immediate feedback about your weakness. Very nicely, unlike a book, it seems to have an unlimited resources of stuff to read and perhaps (I am not sure) it adjusts the difficulty to your level. I've always struggled with that myself.

From a software perspective, they are continuously improving the underlying technology. For example now it works (only in the Chrome browser) without installing anything in the computer. That means it works in Linux and Chromebooks, besides Mac and Windows. For now it is only MIDI (which is okay), but they are working on using the Mic and audio to be compatible with acoustic pianos (a tough nut to crack because of how the wide-spectrum of the background noise, the harmonics of each note -- especially in the bass -- and other things interact).

It is different, but not very different from the app I had in mind myself which I discussed here. I'll write about the differences in that context.

In conclusion, I think that for people interested in practicing sight reading is worth your time for sure (and perhaps even your money for the paid account, depending on your finances and what you want to do). I'll surely continue working with it. It is also worth for ear training, but the stem "hint" problem mentioned above is really a drawback. For other stuff, I am not decided yet.

Drew-r

Del Vento

I’ve had a DP project, somewhat stymied for multiple reasons and therefore sort of on the back burner while i sort through some of the obstacles..... but the initial goal is to be able to resume regular lessons, via an online course for which i expect to try Piano Marvel first and am trying to soak up as much from what little relevant, detailed conversation i find here, there, anywhere there is to glean from.

Aside from you, i remember mmatthew posted here or PW or both that he too is currently following the PM curriculum ..... so we got that goin ..... which is nice.

Thank you.

Drew-r

Del Vento Some other things, e.g. "ear training" (which is very good and deserves its own category) is considered part of the technique
Ear training would be fantastic if the note stems would not give hints on the pitch ☹️

These comments of yours i find interesting.

Keep in mind my related PM experience is only one week old compared to yours, just last night at 0330 this morning i got half way through 1E exercises. For the most part, ive found PM’s ear-training to be helpful but also confusing. It may make sense that at your current level 11, you prefer the ear training to have no visual clues/hints, while i find these visual hints help me determine which sound, exactly, PM intends me to hear.

At my current level, many of the ear-training songs (pieces) are constructed of obvious & simple melodies for me to hear/follow and mimic accordingly, BUT, some of the pieces are constructed of several “listening to a band”-like sounds which together are discordant enough that i’ve found these require two ways for me to correctly mimic: 1) listen to the piece repeatedly enough that i eventually can separate the various accompaniment noises enough to finally hear the target “melody” to mimic; 2) use the visual clues (note stems), which works for me but this also requires enough sight reading skills to see the visual clues on time ..... some of these pieces use simple note & tempo patterns, like whole & half notes based on relatively slow tempo with 4/4 time .....which is a related but seemingly separate skill ( hearing versus seeing).

At first i thought 1) was maybe because of flaws in my range of hearing but i eventually came to the conclusion that my hearing is mostly fine except for loss of high freqs due to normal aging, and what ive observed is because PM intentionally makes some of these ear lessons difficult to discern IE, they’ve intentionally added a multitude of discordant accompaniment sounds to help the ear-skill-honing process ....... yes/no ?

Del Vento

I think having a teacher is best, regardless of using Piano Marvel or not.

Drew-r

Del Vento

I agree wholeheartedly, i even had a local, retired music teacher/conductor lined up but ....... my (supposed to be part time) job in home-care has become so hectic and unpredictable the past year that there’s not enough downtime for, for now, to do formal lessons 🙁

oshogg

Del Vento I think having a teacher is best, regardless of using Piano Marvel or not.

+1. We have been using Piano Marvel in additional to a teacher. The price of teachers here is an order of magnitude higher than Piano Marvel - so PM doesn't really feel that bad.

Osho

Del Vento

oshogg We have been using Piano Marvel in additional to a teacher.

Does your teacher like it? Mine doesn't.

Chrispy

Del Vento What specifically doesn't your teacher like? Mine is fine with it for my purposes (getting fluent with the notes on new pieces and sight reading) though certainly doesn't use it at part of our lessons.

oshogg

Del Vento Does your teacher like it? Mine doesn't.

For Sight-reading, she does. She doesn't use it for any other purposes.

Osho

Del Vento

Chrispy delvento What specifically doesn't your teacher like? Mine is fine with it for my purposes (getting fluent with the notes on new pieces and sight reading) though certainly doesn't use it at part of our lessons.

Context: with "pieces" I am at what Piano Marvel calls level 11. With technique I do things that aren't even there, such Duvernoy studies, full Hanon almost at the recommended 108 speed (Piano Marvel has a watered down version) and scale variations (I completed all major/harmonic/melodic in parallel motion, contrary motion, thirds, and currently working on sixths -- and Piano Marvel does not even have the melodic minor in parallel motion).

For learning pieces he doesn't like that way to learn the notes, which place no attention whatsoever on exact duration (only start) not to mention articulation and dynamics (even though in most cases I learn the latter two at a later stage). I am undecided if I like it or now for this purpose, and will continue using it for a while to make my mind.

For sight reading (which is my main gripe, my score is barely and occasionally around 500) he said that he does not like the whole approach and that one needs to learn that in context (e.g. with solfege and musical dictation exercises) and not in isolation exercises. Besides what he says, I've found that when I was starting it felt pretty good in the way it progressed in difficulty (easier if I made mistakes, harder if I didn't). But now after several days it seems very confused: it presents super-easy quarter-notes alternating RH then LH in the same piece (but not together), then obviously I do that right and it "jumps" to incredibly difficult (for me) with lots of quavers and perhaps even syncopation in hands together, which I utterly fail at less than 30% score. I haven't told this to my teacher, and I suspect that if I do he'd say to give up wasting my time with Piano Marvel 😅

Moreover, it appears that I am very close to having exhausted all it had in that level, since it starts to present again pieces that I have already sight read several times…. so I am not sure anymore it is useful for me, as I initially thought. I'll give it a couple of more weeks to fully make my mind, since I have the trial. Also I dislike the baby-songs that it presents at this level of sight reading, but if it is only that I could (barely) tolerate it.

Deleted

Del Vento But now after several days it seems very confused: it presents super-easy quarter-notes alternating RH then LH in the same piece (but not together), then obviously I do that right and it "jumps" to incredibly difficult (for me) with lots of quavers and perhaps even syncopation in hands together, which I utterly fail at less than 30% score. I haven't told this to my teacher, and I suspect that if I do he'd say to give up wasting my time with Piano Marvel 😅

Congratulations. You just found out, how each piano student has their own individual struggles and why we don't do piano classes in groups of 20. You recognize how a computer doesn't adhere to your specific problems and just throws some one-size-fits-all curriculum on you without a proper way to check your progress.

Maybe it's time to give up wasting your time with "Piano Marvel". 😁

Drew-r

Del Vento

You are on PM Level 11 .... and still using the trial ...?

Did you get to this point having started at PM level 1 ? .... just based on having finished 1 full week of trial i do not see how there are enough hours in a minute to have pulled this off (i exaggerate to highlight my utter surprise somebody/anybody is at 11 on trial 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔) but if the answer is “yes”, my hat is off to you , big time ! 🙂 ....have you slept, at all, the past weeks?

When did you begin your PM trial? ..... i suppose its possible there are “features” with the Premium version that may get past some of the PM flaws you’ve observed ..... but i guess you don’t or won’t pay for Premium given the flaws you’ve described already but also, at level 11. it may be you’ve already gotten the lion’s share of PM benefit and its time for you to move on to some other course, curriculum or perhaps just go on with a real instructor .

Del Vento

Drew-r

You are on PM Level 11 .... and still using the trial ...?

Did you get to this point having started at PM level 1 ? ....

'course not. I am studying pieces with my teacher, which I looked into the PM library and they showed level 11. I have almost completed level 3 of technique and method (and find them very boring, besides the ear training which is more interesting).

Drew-r given the flaws you’ve described

I'm not saying they are flaws. I am saying they are things which do not seem to be a good fit for me. In fact I went to PM given the nudging from many people because I am a horrible reader (not just sight reader, even plain reader of pieces I mastered: I basically need to fully memorize them perfectly or be doomed to poor performance). I was initially excited about the sight reading things, but now the excitement has been quenched as I explained. For now the most interesting part seems to be the ear training, but there aren't enough of them to justify registering for that only (yes I peeked at the ones in higher levels: they become too difficult too quick)

Drew-r

Del Vento

I see .... pun intended because i too am a horrible “piano reader” but this is mostly due to eyesight/vision problem .... unfortunately i look at notes on a score and it requires time for may eye- brain connection to determine “ that is an Xnote/value on a given line or space, press the appropriate finger/s ” and as long as its slow going, especially now that i have a 25 inch flat screen as my ipad monitor, it works .... until the scores advance to the point that the notes-on-lines/spaces happens faster than i can react ☹️ ... which is inevitable at some higher low-intermediate level .... so i have accepted that i progress slower than most by repetition/memorization.

At 55 i made a pact with myself.... i set a simple goal as someone who had NEVER EVER bern a goal-minded person , so i was a beginner at this too ..... and decided to start beginner’s lessons knowing some of the obvious limitations .... planning to advance enough to serve my own pleasure/enjoyment .... and trying to drink up as much regret along the way .... i accomplished both by the age of 57 ..... and at 62 i’m grappling with getting a little better.

Where .... how far .... roughly, do you hope or expect to get, goal wise?

Del Vento

Drew-r Where .... how far .... roughly, do you hope or expect to get, goal wise?

Very interesting question with a complicated answer.

The short version is to become really fluent player. What does it mean? Well, for a language, you need to master grammar, vocabulary, pronunciation, syntax, idioms, intonation, accent, and probably plenty more. But you recognize it easily and immediately when you speak with a fluent speaker, even if they are not a poet or a "perfect" speaker. For piano music, we could take a detour into Phil Best's "what does fluency means to you" and I think that's a good conversation to have, but in a separate thread (if you start it, please @-mention me so I don't overlook it that these days I'm more busy).

In piano, at the moment, I stutter. My teacher identified many reasons for that and he helped me fixing all of them but one, and make very nice progress on my technical. But I still stutter, and for two reasons. The 80% of the times it is because I have not perfectly memorized what I need to do and in most cases there is no way that I can read it (hence my interest in PM). In the remaining 20% I am simply learning a new thing (technically or artistically) and my teacher is helping me with that. Moreover, if I want to make a performance, even just in front of a camera to post it somewhere (so no "nerves" or "pressure" from the audience involved), I need to take several attempts before getting a decent one. And the reason for this is that 80% reading-or-memorizing.

So you see how frustrating this must be for me. Imagine it for reading text: you are perhaps at some middle or maybe even high-school level of understanding, but you can't read a book, other than painstakingly each word letter-by-letter, without grasping the sentences unless and until you memorize everything in your mind and then repeat them (loudly or in your head) without being able to write anything down. How painful is it to study this way?

Since I mentioned him many times, I'll quote his point of view here: my teacher simply says "that's the way it is, be patient" -- I have patience, but the pain and frustration remains. Perhaps I am explaining it better here than I did in this other thread or maybe this one, where it would have been more appropriate (and would have explained better the attitudes of my posts)

Drew-r

Del Vento

Heads up for your poll thread, since polls/surveys often do not allow respondents to provide a brief free-form response that conditionally applies to their poll answer.

If you can provide a SR tool that allows the user to resize the screen - make the G& F clefs a little larger so that 1) there is a little more spacing between the lines, 2) the lines area bit thicker and 3) the notation, especially the notes themselves - wholes, halves, quarters, eighths - are a bit bigger, then yes, i would use this app since it is user friendly for users with a bit of far-sightedness or other vision problems that come with 30 inches of space between eyes and piano music/scores. 🙂

The trial version of PM does not allow the screen/score view to be resized so i can only guess the Premium also does not.

Del Vento

Drew-r Heads up for your poll thread, since polls/surveys often do not allow respondents to provide a brief free-form response that conditionally applies to their poll answer.

But you can reply to the thread like a normal conversation. Please bring your message there and we can discuss it a bit in context.

Del Vento

Drew-r they’ve intentionally added a multitude of discordant accompaniment sounds to help the ear-skill-honing process ....... yes/no ?

Well, I can't tell what their real intention is, so here are my opinion, observation and speculation.

I find all those accompaniments (both in the ear training and in the other sections of the website), very irritating.

I observed that they tend to be very rhythmic to avoid using a more real metronome (and also "insist" on the student counting and similar things, as if one was "resisting" that).

I speculate from their song choice and these accompaniments that their target audience is people who like pop and rock music only, and would like to play "piano" as "keyboard in a pop/rock band", so they might actually like those irritating style of background.

Drew-r

Del Vento

To be honest, so far i have not thought too much about the genre of sounds & noises they use but if pressed, i might say - yea, kinda mainstream cheesey, kinda irritating - but ive found that learning anything worthy often involves tolerating irritants. At some later point i may change but for now and foreseeable future, i’m not bothered too much by this .

You are at 11 and clearly way beyond where i am at presently, so maybe you do not remember why you dislike the note stem clues and why i find them helpful while having trouble becoming sure about whether weeding out target melody from a palette of noise is something they intended OR something to do with my lack of hearing.