Kawai vs. Yamaha!

Pete14 · 2024-06-18T12:18:41+00:00

I was recently called a ‘six-year-old-monkey-troll’, simply because I asked for “a healthy dose of peace,” so, In the spirit of bringing tensions down, I’ve decided to start a “straight-forward” discussion, for it seems like my metaphorical, metaphysical, meant-for-deeper-exploration-of-the-soul topics tend to be misconstrued, and somehow ‘a healthy dose of peace’ is perceived as a bad thing….by some people…. This here thread is about expressing our perceptions/onions about the two most relevant “DP” makers, and only whence sufficient data is presented as evidence should a statement be considered a rock-solid fact. Roland is a toy-maker (my onion), so I felt it unfair to include it in the title right next to serious piano makers; however, in the spirit of keeping things fair & balanced, I’ll allow this brand (and others) to be included into this civil, fair, respectful, and balanced discussion…… My personal onion is that Yamaha simply gives you more bang-for-the-buck than Kawai, and yes, their quality/control is better, too (built like a tank)…..

David B

Pete14 Perhaps “they” should improve on those two fronts (on-board piano/speaker system); because some of us no longer want to deal with external monitors, VSTs, and all the clutter/cables that come with that. We simply want to power-ON and go (no drama waiting for a diva like VSL to load up; only to then decide that it’s not in the mood to be played); heck, I want my piano to power-ON on its own as soon as I sit on the bench; that’s how little drama I want!

I'm just the opposite. Unless they can figure out how to put a set of Genelecs in a slab, then I don't need internal speakers. 😎

I'd really like a dedicated controller with a great action and flexible software for calibrating/single note editing. That's what I like about the Numa GT. My action is evenly calibrated (thanks to the software) and I don't have to rely on velocity curves to reach all 127 velocities like I did with Roland and Yamaha.

There is really only one dedicated controller on the market and that's the VPC1, but I'm not buying it with outdated technology. I don't want no slip tape and a mushy (non-optical sensor) pedal.

God Bless,
David

HZPiano

David B pedal

The pedal unit, indeed, is unbelievable. And not in a good way.

That it is still here after more than a decade is beyond comprehension.

Cheers and happy playing,

Pete14

David B I'm just the opposite. Unless they can figure out how to put a set of Genelecs in a slab, then I don't need internal speakers. 😎

It seems like I might be in the minority, after all, because based on you people ‘round here, the “all-in-one” is for old hacks like Pete; who have a hard time getting out of bed; never mind dealing with all them “modern gadgets,” but I sometimes wonder, will industry ever cater to the old, or are we (the people who literally built this country) to remain on the fringes, forgotten, unattended, walking around with soiled pampers for weeks because the caregiver decided to go on vacation?

I can’t even lift my sandals, never mind one of ‘em Genelecs (David loves so much), so yes, I need people to move things around for me, but do they? No, they don’t, so I’m left to fend for myself (easier said than done, considering 101).

Please pardon my digression, but I wonder, since the Millennials are all about “helping,” why hasn’t a single one of them showed up at my doorsteps, and asked, “do you need some help, old Pete?” (I tried finding an emoji reflecting an old person, but I couldn’t find a single one….they’re all young….wow-just-wow).

At least I have my wondrous imagination, so, could you young people at least allow me that?

Since I can barely walk, could you allow me to fly onto other worlds imagined, or is that too much to ask for an old hack like Pete?

Jose EB5AGV

HZPiano I guess sales are not that many… it maybe an end of that product line. A one hit wonder of controllers 😁

CyberGene

We live in a balloon really. I don't have any actual data but I bet 95% of digital piano buyers get an entry-level instrument and don't bother at all with software and external amplification. General usage MIDI controllers (simple or fancy, with many sliders, knobs, etc) are very popular with bedroom music producers, however those are either non-weighted hammer actions or some entry-level hammer action. A specialized piano MIDI controller with good hammer-action is a niche product.

amc252

I live in an area where there ar no piano stores, so I had to make do with what I found on the used market.

My first DP was a venerable Korg C15 and I was impressed. Although it was like 30 years old, it looked like new and as if it could still go strong for another 30 years. The quality of the components and the construction was awesome. I haven't touched the newer Korg models, and I'm aware they are not cutting edge, but I'm sure they would be satisfactory instruments.
My second piano was an old Clavinova CLP115, and I loved it. It wasn't on par with the Korg as for quality construction, but the sound was very pleasant and it worked very well.
I had tried a Yamaha P45 and think it is an inferior product under any aspect. Nothing like the Clavinova. In fact, if i ever get to buy a new DP, it would probably be a Clavinova.
My present DP is a Roland F107. I didn't like it at first, but I've grown to like the action and the connectivity. It has pretty much every function you might want in a DP for being an entry level model.
I still don't dig the SuperNatural sound though. It is too brassy in the mid-range for my taste. Then again, it is okay for practice, and I probably wouldn't use any DP onboard sound for recording anyway.
At this point in my piano journey, I think I'll play the Roland for another year or so and then decide whether I need a better digital or perhaps an acoustic.

Pete14

CyberGene specialized piano MIDI controller with good hammer-action is a niche product.

Especially if it sells for $2,499 (up from $1,899), and does only ONE thing…

There are plenty good controllers (for solo piano) that also come with tons of added value: drum pads, assignable sliders & knobs, pitch/modulation wheel, etc… for a fraction of the price.

BTW, it seems like Kawai took “inflation” to heart; because a six hundred dollar increase seems a bit much…..

David B

Pete14 Especially if it sells for $2,499 (up from $1,899), and does only ONE thing…

Pete14 BTW, it seems like Kawai took “inflation” to heart; because a six hundred dollar increase seems a bit much…..

Yes, that's really unreasonable.

Pete14 There are plenty good controllers (for solo piano) that also come with tons of added value: drum pads, assignable sliders & knobs, pitch/modulation wheel, etc… for a fraction of the price.

As much as I find the sounds and layering capability of my Numa GT interesting, I really don't find myself utilizing it. It was more of a novelty when I first got it. I only play the piano as time allows. If money weren't an issue I'd like to have a dedicated controller like the VPC because of its simple, refined, piano-like look, and also a stage piano with all the bells and whistles for future use if time allows.

God Bless,
David

CyberGene

David B and also a stage piano with all the bells and whistles for future use if time allows

The Numa is a very capable stage piano too, so you already have one 🙂

Pete14

Not to be outdone by David, I, too, present to you a “demonstration” video for a very interesting Yamaha action, and whilst the video is amateur in nature, it shows the guts/mechanics of the action, that, oddly enough, look a lot like the GF, or does the GF look like it?

https://youtu.be/_D62G49_Rws?si=pNJ6CLO-wLedzMMB

BTW, the Yamaha action seems to have both hammer and keybed sensors (under the keys); not sure if the GF has this!

CyberGene

Pete14 Yamaha were so ahead of its time with the CLP-990! I remember that it had a built-in microphone that would capture external sounds and would feed them through the damper resonance modeling, like on an acoustic piano: if you press the damper pedal and sing or play other instruments, it would trigger resonances in those strings with matching overtones. It’s such a pity they abandoned all these great innovations.

Pete14

CyberGene

So, it’s not a stretch to think that they’re at it again with the “new” sensors, and god knows what other shortcuts!

Imagine if they’d continued developing the action in the CLP-990; even with modest improvements we’d have something superb by now, but they decided otherwise……sadly!

Now, playing devil’s advocate, this industry is so tiny (by comparison) that perhaps these companies are forced to make these cuts, or else they could collapse, because we tend to ask for “better,” but don’t necessarily intend on paying more for it, or, as someone suggested, we simply take what they give us, like fanboys, without questioning them…..

Khuja Wangtishvili

I think it's a very fierce territory. See how a lot of companies went from top performers into Chinese crap (Most prominent are Kurzwril and Alesis), while others had significant financial problems like Roland. Very few (Korg, Yamaha, Roland, maybe Akai) survived in the top league since 80s.

And a lot of new arised, like Nord or Dexibell. I terestingly, some very nice companies like Dorpfer or something like Studiologic are still in business. GEM is sadly history now 🙁

Literally everyone besides big4 gets their actions from Fatar.

Pete14

Khuja Wangtishvili I think it's a very fierce territory. See how a lot of companies went from top performers into Chinese crap (Most prominent are Kurzwril and Alesis)..

Oh yes, Kurzweil (or should I say OH, NO!)…..

What can I say about Kurzweil that hasn’t been said before? Well, for one thing, it sucks!

But that was not always the case (as implied by Khuja above), and at one point it was even called “the Steinway of digitals,” and one could argue that it was, and yes, this was also reflected in its price, but then you did get their award-winning “triple-strike” sample set.

Sadly, they remained stuck on three, and never moved on to the quad-strike (not until recently at least), and the prices kept going up whilst the competition continued eating into their profits by doing something simple: better “pianos” for less, so yes, they all stagnate (Yamaha, Kawai, etc…), but Kurzweil is now known as ‘the king of stagnation;’ a massive downgrade from its former glory….

The moral of the story: don’t be like Kurzweil, the brand, for Ray is doing quite well for himself, and making big bucks over at Google (he no longer has an interest in the piano).

CyberGene

Someone should correct me if I’m wrong but I think those guys that were behind the great piano (for its time) at Kurzweil left and formed Synthogy. I think I read that somewhere.

CyberGene

https://www.musicradar.com/news/tech/meet-the-programmers-synthogy-570810

Pete14

CyberGene

Interesting, but considering Ivory-III, it seems like they left most of their knowledge behind! 😆

BTW, didn’t the Synthogy-Boys release a hard/physical piano module that failed miserably?

My understanding is that they were testing the waters with the module, and if it succeeded they’d proceed onto a full-fledged digital (with keys and everything)!

I’m sorry, but they lost me at “equal-energy,” and I wonder, did they steal equal energy from Kurzweil?

But to be fair & equal, I wouldn’t mind if a Synthogy-Boy did tell me what this energy (that is equal) is, or at least what it attempts to be, but if they don’t show their faces and mansplain this to me, I’m sticking with “equal-energy” 🟰 made up malarkey!

CyberGene

Pete14 I’m sorry, but they lost me at “equal-energy,”

What’s that, I missed it.

Pete14

CyberGene

Synthogy claims that “equal-energy” is some state-of-the-art tech that sets Ivory-III apart from the rest, but when asked how this advanced tech works, they go quiet, so I think the whole thing is hype running on fumes!

Pete14

I’ll be out of service for a few hours; my caregiver decided to show up (after an extended absence), and I have a bag full of crap, soiled pants, and a tower of dishes that need to be done, so I’ll be out of commission, but please don’t feel bad for me, and do go on with the conversation (if luck is on my side, I might get her to give me a happy massage, but she has a temper, so I have to be tactful on how to ask for it)….😊

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