Learning piano as a kid

Del Vento

Since we've learned in another thread that many forum posters are adult learners, I would like to ask the ones who aren't (if I am not mistaken @Killomiter and @danno858 are two of them) what was like and how it feels now.

I will share what it feels like not having done that myself (and, based on the conversation I had with a few in other contexts, I think many adult learner will relate): it feels like you are never are at the command of the instrument, but always ready to fall, like walking a tightrope. Just a wrong move, and you're gone.

My own peeve (and I am not sure this is shared by others) is that even my best playing of a final piece is littered with lots of very clear "mistakes": either wrong notes, or wrong tempos, or wrong accents which clearly sound wrong. By contrast, when I hear some other players rather than my own recordings, even if there are indeed wrong notes, or wrong tempos, or wrong accents, they sound wrong only if you want to look at the score (or know the music well) and want to nitpick, but otherwise the music might have been that way and it would have been okay. To make a comparison with poetry, as if in reciting a poem one uses a synonym instead of the original word, but without breaking neither the rhyme nor the rhythm. Whereas, in this comparison, my mistakes in a poem would break at least one (and often two if not all of three) of meaning, rhyme and rhythm….

Deleted

Del Vento Since we've learned in another thread that many forum posters are adult learners, I would like to ask the ones who aren't

Am child learner on piano (though I progressed a lot more on it as an adult to the point of teaching it) and an adult learner on guitar (progressed to the point of performing live on stage). So I kinda have both perspectives.

Del Vento I will share what it feels like not having done that myself (and, based on the conversation I had with a few in other contexts, I think many adult learner will relate): it feels like you are never are at the command of the instrument, but always ready to fall, like walking a tightrope. Just a wrong move, and you're gone.

I got out of that tightrope mindset when I started practicing with others several years ago, usually sight-reading chords, keeping a comfortable distance to my practice skills. Being humble enough to not pick repertoire close to your limits is the most important one. Of course underway I learned all kinds of recovery techniques if something goes wrong, which is much easier, when everyone else moves on and you just pick back up.

It's a common theme with adult learners to just pick way too hard repertoire. And even if they manage to get the wrong notes out of the way (the most obvious mistakes), everything else still is a complete struggle, but they don't notice it anymore. The willingness to go with children beginners repertoire (or even below it), which would be appropriate for adult beginners, is exceptionally rare - For that reason I generally do not accept adult students.

On my journey I met adult beginners on guitar and noticed that many people are fine with just being a three-chord campfire guitarist for a while and they accept that it might take a year to master the seven basic chords while struggling with rhythm. But the general expectation with piano is to play intermediate repertoire like Beethoven WoO 59 by month 3 to 6 and to move on to Chopin nocturnes after a year.

Killomiter

Del Vento - I may have given a slightly wrong impression about myself - As a kid it was purely play not learning per say. All my music from about 16 yrs been self taught and although I was very much into music, I never had a real opportunity to play the Piano. Most instrument's are basically the same. Music is the same. The trouble starts when if others are like me, I tend to be very lazy. Constantly over the years of winging it. I seem to remember that it was Picasso that said "I could never be a musician as once you stop playing the the art is gone, but painting is immortal"

The thing is for me it does not matter that stuff is exactly repeatable, but what does matter is you through your playing truly evokes and transmits the emotion. I hope this kind of answers your question man 🙂

Drew-r

Del Vento

Del Vento I think many adult learner will relate): it feels like you are never are at the command of the instrument, but always ready to fall, like walking a tightrope. Just a wrong move, and you're gone.

My own peeve (and I am not sure this is shared by others) is that even my best playing of a final piece is littered with lots of very clear "mistakes"

I want to add a snippet from my long-ago experience of learning new experiences starting as a child.

#1, i was raised in an era when it was common for children to learn / be taught that in order to learn and achieve anything to include achieving mastery of one simple step as the important stepping stone to learning the next simple step, one must learn how to walk before running, one must occasionally become lost in order to discover new places on the way to becoming un-lost, when falling off the bicycle “horse”, do not hesitate, do not be afraid to get back on and continue the learning process. All of these should naturally lead to learning the ultimate lesson - one must learn how to fail, how to lose in order to learn how to win or achieve anything small-to-great🙂

#2, i see the present world upside down from #1. Children of all ages from 4 to (effectively) 40 are nursed and hand-held and stunted ad nauseam, parents demand their little johnies and janies be awarded “ participant” trophies and given ice cream parties & pizza pies simply for existing-while-otherwise-failing-to-genuinely-learn-much-of-anything …. “ or i’ll slap a lawsuit or other political maneuver on you !!”

Del Vento

Thanks everybody for chiming in, hope contributions keep coming.

danno858 Let me start by saying that you are describing a feeling I call "falling off the ladder" - at least that's what it feels like to me when I'm playing something new - or even something difficult that I can usually play well, and then a finger slips or hits the wrong key and it all goes downhill after that!

To me that sounds "just" as playing on "autopilot" or "muscle memory" (obviously the muscles don't have memory, it's all in the brain but it's a much different part of the brain as probably @vagfilm could explain better than I) and then having to "switch" to "manual pilot" and viceversa. I know that and I am actually working on that transition following the watered-down version explained in this seminar (which is at much higher level than mine). But I was talking about something different.

danno858 But overall, yes, I feel like I have a good command most of the time.

Very nice to hear. To you feel you are on autopilot when you do or not?

Deleted It's a common theme with adult learners to just pick way too hard repertoire.

I've been told that by my teachers and I followed their advice. For that reason, I went from Maple Leaf Rag, down to Bach Inventions, down to Anna Magdalena Notebook, down to even easier things. I did improve on some aspects, but not on this "tightrope" feeling.

Deleted So I kinda have both perspectives.

Can you please elaborate more about it? I mean, I could play MLR and it was a tightrope experience. Now I'm playing early Mozart/Bach/Beethoven and it's clearly easier, but it's still a tightrope experience. I think it is a combination of factors: technique (which with the easier pieces is not a problem anymore), memorization/reading (which we are discussing in other two threads), ability to keep "perfect" or rather "fluent" tempo (but how to learn that?) then probably not having a "full understanding" of the musical "phrases", so need to concentrate on "minutia" such as how to shape each phrase with proper dynamics, and probably more which I don't even realize.

So is it just to learn a gazillion of easy pieces to the best of your ability, and just little by little having all of these ingrained into you?

Killomiter The thing is for me it does not matter that stuff is exactly repeatable, but what does matter is you through your playing truly evokes and transmits the emotion.

MHirsch As my teacher used to say, "musicians play music, students play notes. it's up to you to remain a student or be a musician". He insisted that the time will be spent on the musical aspects rather than on polishing of the "right" notes. To me it still makes sense. It's ok to make one mistake or another, if the whole sounds like music.

I totally agree with both of you on these. In fact in my initial post I did not mention perfection, but I explicitly mentioned mistakes that

Del Vento ound wrong only if you want to look at the score (or know the music well) and want to nitpick, but otherwise the music might have been that way and it would have been okay

My question is how to get there? How to learn that? (of course I'm constantly asking this question to my teacher too, but want to see forum posters' opinions)

Drew-r I want to add a snippet from my long-ago experience of learning new experiences starting as a child.

Yeah, I see that and I think I mentioned "The gift of failure" book already in another thread. I'm fine with failure, if I can see progress. I don't see that on myself (yet?) and hence I ask if I am on the right path or not.

Del Vento

Now that I think about it, @dore_m is another one who started relatively early

Del Vento

And also @InstrEd

danno858

Hello Delvento - I can only speak from my own experience so here goes. Let me start by saying that you are describing a feeling I call "falling off the ladder" - at least that's what it feels like to me when I'm playing something new - or even something difficult that I can usually play well, and then a finger slips or hits the wrong key and it all goes downhill after that!

It is truly an art to recover from a slight incorrect note or mishap - I had a teacher tell me once, if you make a mistake keep going - the audience will not notice it the same as you. I've heard many concert pianists say they make mistakes all the time - unless someone really knows the score well, they will usually not notice - at least not as much as you notice. I saw one of Tiffany Poon's videos on Youtube where she was showing a video taken of her when she was 10 years old - she points out that she hit a wrong chord in the piece - which I had not noticed! That made me feel better about my errors.

It all mostly depends on how I feel when I sit down to play - some days I'm really feeling the music and other days I know before I sit down that I should not attempt it…..and invariably those feelings turn out to be correct. If I'm not feeling musical or creative I just give up - otherwise I get frustrated and angry.

When I first started out as a child I was very impatient. I always wanted to play pieces that were beyond my capabilities. And I would become very discouraged. Somewhere and somehow over the course of my piano playing life, I learned that patience bears fruit and that practicing boring routines actually pay off later on down the road.

Good days and bad days happen though. But overall, yes, I feel like I have a good command most of the time. Give yourself more time. Also, slow the speed down a bit - I heard somewhere that people will appreciate a piece played slowly but played well more than they appreciate a piece played fast but not well.

burkey

As a child it was harder because I was only given a very limited choice of classical/romantic/baroque repertoire - 90% of the year was studying exam pieces, scales, and arpeggios (most of the other 10% on Xmas carols!).

The other factor is that time moves faster the older you get - so it feels like it takes longer to achieve results when you're younger.

That said, your brain actually learns faster as a child until about age 9. That's also why it's easier to learn languages when you're a child.

MHirsch

I learned violin as a kid. This thing with ready to fall, if you play in an orchestra, is a no-go. You either keep going no matter what or you're out 😁

As my teacher used to say, "musicians play music, students play notes. it's up to you to remain a student or be a musician". He insisted that the time will be spent on the musical aspects rather than on polishing of the "right" notes. To me it still makes sense. It's ok to make one mistake or another, if the whole sounds like music.

danno858

Del Vento What happens when I internalize a piece can be one of two things - either I have it completely memorized from playing it so much or I need to look at the written music in a couple of key spots. One thing I find is that no matter how much I work on perfecting a piece, if I put it down for a few months and come back to it, I notice a marked improvement. It's almost like something sets in over time. I'm not real good at memorizing the chords and remembering a piece just based on the chords.

Deleted

Of course proper evaluation through a forum is not possible, so think of the following more as a general example of a fictitious adult learner:

Del Vento I've been told that by my teachers and I followed their advice. For that reason, I went from Maple Leaf Rag, down to Bach Inventions, down to Anna Magdalena Notebook, down to even easier things. I did improve on some aspects, but not on this "tightrope" feeling.

That means they might have gone from "far above abilities" to "challenging" repertoire. Challenging repertoire should be part of your lessons and practice, so I can become better, but confident performance happens several grades below that.

So is it just to learn a gazillion of easy pieces to the best of your ability, and just little by little having all of these ingrained into you?

When I picked up my adult beginner instrument (acoustic guitar), I deliberately moved away from classical and solo repertoire, from memorizing specific pieces to sight-reading lead sheets of hundreds of songs. On that journey I've met people online, who did the usual thing of downloading and trying tablature for well known virtuous songs, while I was adding fundamental left hand and right hand technique to my repertoire to be able to play anything.

So when I'm in a rehearsal setting with a lead sheet I've never seen before, I don't have a memorized solo tightrope to walk along. Instead I listen to others and make up a more or less fitting accompaniment on the spot while keeping a safe distance to what I practice at home or with my guitar teacher.

Of course when you start applying that to piano a whole new world opens up to you.

dore_m

I don't know if I'm a good example of someone who learned piano as a kid. I'm from an immigrant family, and learned from a neighborhood mom, and I just wanted to be like my older brother who was learning from a real teacher. I'm not technically trained, although I can play almost anything you throw at me - I like to say that I have the dexterity to play the notes at roughly the correct tempos but I can't play and interpret them well.

I'm actually happy that I wasn't trained methodically like most kids. I learned to arrange and use my ear more. I used to make pop music covers with my old Atari 1040ST and sound modules and appreciate any type of musical arranging, scoring, etc. Today, I've taken it a different way - instead of recreating other people's music, I'm recreating other people's pianos.

Killomiter

danno858 Agree with you Danno, and would add that once a piece is internalised for me I keep a twitchy eye on the lookout for where stuff can be tastefully modified. Even if it turns out a moment of failure I still find something to learn from doing this. Maybe a passing note/chord alt keeps things alive for me, Also can inspire in my own music too.

Andy

InstrEd

I just did want my Aunt told me to do with the beginner books so I don't know if I'm much help in the remembering department. I was so fond of my Aunt that I would do anything to please her. She made it fun for those first few years. When I got a new piano teacher that was strict I revolted! After one year went to another teacher for a couple of years and then my parents found one who came to the house. Stayed with him for the duration of my lessons. As high school came other interest came into focus. Also I decided to join band and took up the trumpet. After freshmen year I got a private teacher that I rode my bike to lessons. One thing I will say I wish I never let the trumpet go, should of kept it up even if only practice a couple times a week. Oh well live and learn.

Drew-r

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Your explanation was definitely an “ah ha” moment for me.

Ive often marveled at musicians of all stripes performing solo ( to include vocalists - think Al Jarreau) and wondered how they ever got to be one-with-their-instrument….. yeah, sure, its common for lore spread by pop-culture media to claim “ they were born this way”, and while there may be the occasional, genuinely exceptional “natural”, your witness seems more credible for the majority.

Del Vento

Deleted delvento I've been told that by my teachers and I followed their advice. For that reason, I went from Maple Leaf Rag, down to Bach Inventions, down to Anna Magdalena Notebook, down to even easier things. I did improve on some aspects, but not on this "tightrope" feeling.

That means they might have gone from "far above abilities" to "challenging" repertoire. Challenging repertoire should be part of your lessons and practice, so I can become better, but confident performance happens several grades below that.

Interesting. At first it surprised me, since I thought "c'mon easier than AMN is challenging". Then I thought harder about it. In fact that repertoire is not technically challenging for me, but it may be so musically, or for reading, or for memorizing or for other reasons. In fact I think this is what's happening. FWIW, I think I got this not-tightrope feeling while experimenting with PianoMarvel (a topic for another thread), which starts from super-super easy (one key, one hand, one finger, one note duration -- which obviously everyone can do and even I can sight read 🤣) and very slowly grows in difficulty with different aspects.

Deleted while keeping a safe distance to what I practice at home

That makes sense. And as my PianoMarvel experience above demonstrate, yes, I can keep this "safe distance". Now I have to see if while my lessons progress, the level of non-tightrope "things" (performance, sight reading, etc) progresses too.

So I think that with all the discussions here, I am getting closer to the "truth" of what it is happening for me. I'll talk with my teacher today (maybe, it's theory day) and see what he says.

Thanks everybody and keep sharing your experiences!