My quest for an acoustic upright piano (finally)

Khuja Wangtishvili

Check this - 2019 🙂

https://www.kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/hochwertiges-bechstein-klavier-elegance-124-2019/2939745867-74-711

Yes price is good for this piano.

On the other hand side there are a lot of pianos from 80s of similar height advertised for months for similar price and if you want to negotiate, they tell me that this piano is worth 8000. While it's not uncommon to see few years old top pianos (Bechstein, Grotrian, Sauter, Steingraeber etc) for similar price.

porco_rosso

Yes… There are some pianos I've seen for YEARS in kleinanzeigen because the owners think they can sell them for such a high price. For example a W. Hoffmann T128 (good piano) for 9000€ - they've been trying to sell it for at least 1,5 years - guess what, I'd rather get a first tier C. Bechstein 124 for 8000€ than a third tier (in the Bechstein Line-Up) W. Hoffmann for 9000€…

I also saw the Bechstein you linked, and while it's newer, it's much more expensive and far away from me, while the other is in Berlin. 🙂

Here was a similar one like the one I think about (2004) from a store for 17.000 €, but sold:

https://klavier.hieber-lindberg.de/C-Bechstein-Klavier-2004-Classic-124

(Classic vs. Elegance is just a slightly different cabinet, but same piano)

porco_rosso

HZPiano PS How is your MP11SE doing for you after a little more time of ownership?

Ah, sorry, didn‘t see this question. I still like it very much, action and soundwise. Sometimes I play with the SK-5 sample because I like it’s more intimate and imperfect character. Action is really good, but I wish it was a bit faster (I think GF3 addresses this).

porco_rosso

I contacted a Klavierbaumeister (piano technician master) for an eveluation. 🙂

HZPiano

porco_rosso

Good! Glad you're still going strong with the MP. And yes, I've tried quite a few Kawais, including the MP11SE, where often I liked the SK-5 sample better too.

porco_rosso

Great! I'm looking forward to hear what his/her findings will be. Hopefully, this lovely instrument will pass scrutiny with flying colors.

Cheers!

porco_rosso

Thanks HZPiano! I am already thinking about where to place the piano. There are two options:

my future room: 12sqm, (2,50m x 5,00m), a bit small, maybe the piano will overpower the room - on the other hand the Bechstein wasn't extremely loud and/or gaudy or metallic and unpleasant
the living room: 22sqm (4,5 x 5,00); larger and therefore maybe better suited; that's where the Schimmel is standing right now

I would prefer my future room, because I would have a lot room around me without disturbing anyone - between me and my roommates there would be three walls and doors, and under me is just the entrance hall of the building, so I could always play with a peace of mind and that would mean a lot to me. Also it would always be available for me.

The living room is larger, but it's a walk-through room for one room mate, right next to the kitchen and the rooms of two flatmates. And of course sometimes we have visitors so the piano wouldn't be always available like in my room. That's why I feel most comfortable playing the Schimmel when nobody is at home - I would really prefer option 1… Do you think a 124cm piano is too much for 12sqm?

HZPiano

porco_rosso Do you think a 124cm piano is too much for 12sqm?

I have never tried something like that; gut feeling says yes, that is a bit cramped.

Best would be to just try it out, in your (future) room first because that's what you want, and if that doesn't work out move to the Schimmel's current spot instead. And let everybody know up front that this is the plan. So expectations will be "managed" beforehand.

Cheers and best,

Jose EB5AGV

My U3H is on an even smaller room, and there is no problem. Of course, pounding it can become a tad loud 😅, but proper dynamics keep it tamed down

porco_rosso

Good to know! In what position in the room is your U3H standing?

The Bechstein will probably stand in the living room first if I buy it soon, because I will move into the new room in February. No answer from the Klavierbaumeister yet.

porco_rosso

I've got an appointment for an inspection with a piano technician tomorrow! 🙏

Edit: Change of plans unfortunately, the inspection will take place on 14th January.

Jose EB5AGV

porco_rosso it is about 20cm from the wall, in about the middle of the room length, on one of the longer walls and over a rug. To its right, the door. To its left, perpendicularly, a window. On the opposite side, a bed. Opposite to the window and so perpendicularly to the piano, a large cupboard. The room has a 3m ceiling. That, I guess, helps to the overall sound

porco_rosso

Thank you! The ceilings in my room are even higher, I think about 3,40m maybe. I will also have a sofa. I have a wooden floor, but will also put a rug or two in the room, maybe one under the piano. I will also have my desk and a shelf in the room. But I would prefer to put the piano rather on the side of the longer (5m) wall. I hope it works out.

I hope the seller don‘t find another buyer till the 14th. 🤞

porco_rosso

Hey,

I have decided against the Bechstein. In view of my upcoming expenses from this year for my training as a psychotherapist, the expense of €8,000 seemed too high, even though the offer was of course very good. I also definitely want to put my piano in the small room - and I think it would have been too bulky for the 12 square meter room, both visually and acoustically. I will now either take the Schimmel for just under 3000€ or buy another second-hand piano for up to max. 5000€. If anyone is interested in the Bechstein (located in Berlin) - I can put you in touch with the seller.

porco_rosso

I wanted to visit some dealers today, but most of them were still in holidays. I visited one dealer (that I am not really fond of…) and they had a great Ibach C116 Upright from 1972 for 3500€. I really liked it. The action felt really nice and smooth with more control than on my Schimmel (that's my main contra with the Schimmel), and it had a balanced tone and a really thick warm base that I liked. I made some recordings with my iPhone in the breast pocket of my shirt.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1JhYtsr2_1v5mFB1U5XO34g-WiOckllsX

Recording of my Schimmel as comparison:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpncMXVFIeE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yic5pypLI9Y

I think you can hear from the recordings how much thicker the base is. But I think the Schimmel shimmers and opens up a bit better at louder dynamics and may have more sustain (but that could be voiced I think). Also the Schimmel would cost me just 3000€ (because of the rents I paid) and it looks nicer than the Ibach (minor, but still). And the Schimmel is much younger (1990 vs. 1972).

While the piano itself seems great there are some things I don't like about the dealer. They seem to just do the most necessary things (tuning and regulation), they don't clean the pianos properly (had dusty fingers after playing), they don't polish the brass, the moderatorfelt felt looks worn, they don't voice the hammers, they are not proper piano technicians (ausgebildete Klavierbauer/baumeister).

Khuja Wangtishvili

Sorry but Schimmel from 90s is nowhere near the quality of German made Ibach, but you know that already 😉 you are comparing here old, but Still absolutely top-end piano (in their respective size and form) vs midrange mass produced Piano.

BTW I got mine Ibach C for 1500. It takes time to find good offers but there are good pianos. For example W Hoffmann T122 few years old for 4400. But not around Berlin unfortunately. I always have something in my favourites on Kleinanzeigen.

Khuja Wangtishvili

Here you have, 80% of Bechstein for 20% price.

Gerade bei #Kleinanzeigen gefunden. Wie findest du das?

https://www.kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/klavier-zimmermann/2913873209-74-3394

And this one looks good to:?

https://www.kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/wilh-steinberg-iq-16-klavier-hochglanz-schwarz-piano/2857999807-74-2424?utm_source=sharesheet&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=socialbuttons&utm_content=app_android

Actually, these are the only two pianos with the price >2000 euro within 150km from Berlin, that looks interesting.

Khuja Wangtishvili

And let me share my favourites with you

Wilh Steinberg Iq24 for 5000

https://www.kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/wilhelm-steinberg-klavier-mit-hocker-neupreis-7900-/2796942801-74-6952

Aforementioned Hoffmann

https://www.kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/klavier-w-hoffmann-bechstein-tradition-t122-inkl-klavierbank/2854322476-74-3118

And I would look for Hoffmans and IQ Steinbers somewhere closer to you. They can be often few years old for a good money. I would not but pre-2010 W.Hoffmann made in Czech Republic though.

And Zimmermans - but only those made in Germany between 1992-2000.

Sauter 4000 euros

https://www.kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/sauter-klavier/2958837778-74-4601
Looks interesting

https://www.kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/bechstein-klavier-studio-122-gebraucht-ende-der-90er-jahre/2929308964-74-19906
Another Zimmermann

https://www.kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/klavier-zimmermann-by-c-bechstein-in-buche-zu-verkaufen/2823584741-74-21188

Khuja Wangtishvili

BTW, I wouldn't change your piano on anything below 118cm. For the modern standard with wheels you should add at least 2cm to the height, so your piano is comparable to other 116cm models.

I think I would go either minium 121cm or didn't change the piano at all.

porco_rosso

Thanks for your suggestions! Today I will visit this dealer (https://www.pianos-in-berlin.de) who has many interesting pianos in my price range:

Ed. Seiler Kirsche satiniert, H-115cm, B-145 cm, mit Moderator, BJ 1988

€ 5500,-
Sauter weiß poliert, H-121 cm, B-145 cm, mit Moderator BJ 1987 € 5700,-
Petrof Mahagoni poliert, H-118 cm, B-144 cm, mit Moderator, BJ 2002

€ 4800,-
Wilh. Steinberg schwarz poliert, H-115 cm, B-146 cm, mit Moderator,

BJ 1994 € 4700,-
Sauter Erle hell satiniert, H-114 cm, B-145 cm, mit Moderator BJ 1996

€ 4000,-
Zimmermann (Bechstein Gruppe) Eibe satiniert, H-120 cm,

B-151 cm, mit Moderator, BJ 1999 € 4200,-
Carl Pfeiffer (Stuttgart) schwarz satiniert, H-111 cm, B-143 cm,

mit Moderator, BJ 1978 € 4200,-
W. Hoffmann (Bechstein Gruppe) Modell 116, Buche satiniert, H-116 cm, B-150 cm, mit Moderator, BJ 2005 € 4000,-
Rönisch weiß poliert, H-116 cm, B-148 cm, mit Moderator, BJ 1992

€ 3900,-
Grotrian-Steinweg Nuss satiniert, H-112 cm, B-142 cm, BJ 1980

€ 3200,-
Schimmel Nuss satiniert, H-113 cm, B-146 cm, mit Moderator, BJ 1979

€ 3500,-

And more.

QuasiUnaFantasia

porco_rosso They appear to have a Bösendorfer Modell 170 for 20000 EUR; that is the cheapest I have seen one of those for. They also have a Grotrian-Steinweg Modell Cabinet 192 for 22000 EUR, and that one is from the 1990's.

(Sorry, but the grand piano's take my fancy much more than the uprights).

EDIT: They appear to also have brands not known to me, for example a Krause (Eisenberg) for 2700 EUR (an upright). I wonder whether such "unknown" brands may actually be quite as good as the famous brands.

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